Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the Lead Defend Podcast, a show designed to help you grow in faith and leadership as you navigate the stages of young adulthood. We address important faith topics and provide practical life tips, helping you build up your faith as you engage a changing culture. Now, here are your hosts.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Well, welcome back to the Lead Defend Podcast. I am Bill.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: Hey, everybody, this is Brock, and we.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Are back with you for Lead Defend. We are glad to have you with us today. Thanks for all this that you have been with us throughout the years and remember, probably remind you toward the end, but always check LeadDefend.org for the latest information and updates on Lead Defend as we got 2025 on the way and we've got 2026 already well underway and hope to announce those speakers soon. Well, we are excited today to have a special guest with us. We got Tom Richter with us today. Tom, wel.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Hey, thanks for having me.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Glad to have you. Some of you guys may know Tom from. Tom's got quite a bit of experience speaking at camps. I'm sure he'll share a little bit about that. But he's not just in the youth ministry world. He's got his fingers in a lot of different places. So take a minute and just tell our listeners a little bit about you, Tom.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's an honor to be on with you guys and thank you for having me. Yeah, so I grew up in Kentucky, and those are my roots in a little town called Murray, Kentucky. There's a college there, Murray State. That's where I went. And in terms of ministry, I. I felt called to ministry pretty early. I was a teenager. And there's a phrase we use. Is that okay, you just want to get right into the call to ministry or what do you look at? Oh, yeah, I got a wife, I got three kids. Anyway, call to ministry, whatever you like.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: To share, my friend. It's all on.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I probably should have started there. So I'm married and I have these three great kids. 10th grade, seventh grade, fifth grade. Had to think about it. Girl, boy, girl, they're all in that direction. But yeah, just before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about just call to ministry and growing up in Kentucky, at least in the tradition I grew up in as a Baptist. We use this phrase a lot in this little country church I grew up in called Surrender to the ministry or surrender to God's call to ministry. And I know a lot of times those can be cliched phrases, but in this case, man, that nails it. That perfectly describes it because it did Feel like a surrender. It felt like this isn't something that I was looking for. It wasn't something I wanted.
There's no ministers in my family, you know, that I know of extended lineage wise, but couldn't shake this sense as a teenager that God wanted me to be a preacher.
Like I said, I was in a small country church and, you know, all I knew about preachers was that older gentleman up there that's in the suit and tie that, you know, seems. Seemed really loud and passionate. It was a million miles from where I was as a teenager. And so I just, I just remember feeling like I'm telling God no or no, thank you. And for several reasons. One, I don't have any category for that. I don't see how that could never be me.
But then like, also, go, go, go deal with an adult. Like, like, what do you do? What are you doing with me? Like later. Anyway, how old were you at this point? Yeah, probably like 13, 14 years old.
And so old enough when people start asking, what are you going to be when you grow up? And I remember like feeling this pit in my stomach when people would ask me that. And I would be like, engineer, attorney. I don't know anything else. Anything. Yeah.
And then in the kindness and providence of God, this pastor retires after like 40 years. Awesome. But then this new guy, straight out of seminary, he's young, he's playing basketball. I mean, you know, in Kentucky basketball. You know, this is a big deal.
[00:03:47] Speaker C: I was gonna ask a minute ago where you're team Loya royalties lied with a little bit of maybe rivalry between Arkansas and Kentucky this year.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit. I can stay out of that by saying, go Racers of Murray State. You know, kind of avoid that. But yeah, so here's this, here's this pastor who's in his young twenties who's playing basketball. I'm like, wait, pastors can do that? This seems silly now with all the like, youth events and cool youth figures and all that. We didn't have any of that. And so here's this guy who I could relate to, and he says something. We're out playing basketball, and he says something that we've talked since it probably nudged the trajectory of my life. And he doesn't even remember saying it, which is probably good encouragement for a lot of youth ministers out there. The stuff that's really gonna change a kid's life. You don't even know you said it. Right.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: One of the scariest things I hear in ministry is when a student comes up and Goes, I don't know if you remember when you said, it's like.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Oh, what did I say?
[00:04:45] Speaker B: And I was like, what did I say?
Those are great moments, though.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: So we've talked since. He doesn't remember saying it, but we're playing basketball, me and my buddy Jeff and this new pastor, and he's dribbling and everything he's shooting is going in. That's the other thing. He's like, really good. Yeah.
And so we were like, hey, you know, back then, we called our pastor brother, brother, so? And so. So brother Kevin, you're really good at this. And he says, yeah. And anyway, it comes up a conversation. I was actually offered a scholarship to play college basketball, but turned it down to go to Bible college because God called me to be a preacher. And of course, me and my buddy were like, you did what? This was a terrible decision. Like, every kid in Kentucky dreamed to play college ball. And you turn that down. And then he says, like, mid stroke, you know, mid shot. He says, yeah, but I figure, what good is all that if you don't have peace in your heart with God? Swish.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: And he doesn't remember saying that, but that hit me right where I was. I didn't have any peace with God. Here I am, and I'm thinking, what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, including a college basketball scholarship, but loses or forfeits his own soul? And that just wrecked me. And so I go back to him, and I was like, how does this work? Pray about something.
God's dealing with me, and I meet with him. And then, sure enough, to Sunday night service, they're singing the Invitation Hymn, and I'm like this. I mean, I can't even get sleep here. I'm 14 years old. I'm having an ulcer, but it just wouldn't let up. And so that pastor is still around. He's at First Baptist Gardendale. His name is Kevin Hamm, and he has been a great friend and mentor to so many young people in ministry over the years. But I owe him a great debt just being faithful. He didn't do anything special that day. He was just shooting basketball, but told the truth about what it means to have peace with God. So surrender ministry. You didn't ask for all that. That was a long story. But I think that starting young like that, I think looking back at the time, I was like, God, why are you dealing with somebody at this age? Just wait until I'm older. But I can see maybe looking back, there were some Doors that opened and some things that happened because it wouldn't have happened if it had waited five years or 10 years.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Wow, that's cool. And it's always cool, I think, to look back to see how the Holy Spirit does stuff like that. The way we just say stuff sometimes that it's almost like an off the cuff remark. And then the Spirit man just has a way of meeting people where they are and using us in ways we can't ever imagine. So that's really cool.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: You know, in Matthew 12, Jesus says, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And I think that's a. That was just what was in his heart, you know, I mean, that's the thing. It's kind of like we could plan our words and guard our tongue as much as we want, but boy, the more effective solution would be to have a guarded heart. I mean, to have the right heart, that just what was in him came out of him, you know, that's cool.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: So tell our listeners about what you do now, where you're serving.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: I am the pastor of Coleman First Baptist Church in Coleman, Alabama. Coleman is a town in north Alabama, kind of right between Huntsville and Birmingham, and have been there about eight years.
Before that, for 14 years, I was a pastor of New Hope Church in Queens, New York City, in Jamaica, Queens. Yeah, in the Jamaica neighborhood of Queens. And we.
I started there in 2002. I didn't plant that church. It was a church plant, but the planter and gave it over to me. And then Jackie and I, my wife Jackie and I were there, like I said, 14 years, had three kids while we, you know, at one point, you know, Jackie, you may wonder, how do you get from Queens, New York City to Cullman, Alabama? And the answer is, you marry a girl who's from Cullman, Alabama? Yeah. And so Jackie had grown up in Cullman, went to Samford, it's a Baptist school there in Birmingham, Alabama. And then afterward taught in the inner city in Charlotte, North Carolina. And then when we got married, you know, went to. Began our ministry there in New York. And kind of one funny thing people ask me, like, how's the transition been, you know, from inner city, you know, New York to county seat, First Baptist right in the Deep South. But because I grew up in Murray, it's kind of like coming back to a small town. My wife, she's from Coleman. So the transition we were talking about before, the. The funny thing has been to watch the transition through the eyes of my kids. Right? I mean, Jackie, they were 7, 5 and 3 when we moved from New York to Coleman. You know, at one point we're raising these babies and Jackie's looking at me like, tom, we're raising Yankees.
Put some sweet tea in the baby bottle or something, you know. Yeah, we laugh about that. But the transition through their eyes was, was hysterical because all they've known is a big difference. Oh, you know, high rise living, you know, they're living on the seventh floor of their apartment building and, you know, bundling up and walking and, you know, go elevator every day. And so then he's my five year old, we had been in Coleman about two weeks and my five year old, my son is looking up at the house like, got this weird look on his face like, what's on your mind, buddy? He's like, yo, dad, this house, I'm noticing something about this house. I was like, yeah, what's that, buddy? He's like, this house was built on a park.
And I was like, nah, bro, that's just called a lawn.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Just our yard, dude.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: Just our yard. Every house in Alabama gets its own park. You know what? Yes, sure.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: That's really cool on the culture stuff. So one of the things, I have not had the chance to ever meet you until econ, until this conference today, but I've heard your name in youth ministry circles for years, but you served as a lead pastor for over two decades. So shared for just a minute about how you ended up doing so much in student ministry, being such a big name in student ministry for a lot of folks. I think Brock was sharing earlier that you were at a camp where he was camp pastor. Yeah. And so that always fascinates me when it seems like somebody's kind of in one particular lane, for lack of a better word, but God just kind of widens that lane in some very unexpected ways.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really great way to put it. I never thought of that.
I can't seem to stay in my lane, Bill. I can't.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: That's okay.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: That's okay.
Yeah, you know, maybe. Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm like a generalist, you know, I love God's word. I love people. I love trying to explain and apply God's word to people and just kind of said yes to those opportunities to do that as they came about. Never really planned to be a, you know, a youth speaker or on the college circuit or anything like that, but just one thing led to another. So got involved in youth ministry early on and then centrifuge.
I was a camp Pastor for the centrifuge camps for three summers. And then, you know, somebody would hear you at centrifuge, have you to disciple now. And then, you know, kind of one thing leads to another and doing these winter extreme events like we just had. And Scott Dawson has been a big partner there, and he strength to stand events have been a great joy to be a part of all these.
And then like, yeah, like collegiate week.
Yeah, I'm not really sure other than just sort of the church planning thing helped. I think in one sense, there was no rules, really. I mean, so my church in New York had Sunday evening service only. We rented space from a Lutheran church. They did their thing in the morning and then had their services in the morning. And then we met only on Sunday night. So our Sunday morning service wasn't until 4pm and so that right there, think about how many, if you did a Friday, Saturday event and Sunday morning, fly back into LaGuardia. So there's some opportunity there. And I was kind of like, I think God's blessing, this traveling speaking thing. So I just went to the church, like, is this. And they were like, yeah, it's great with us. Okay.
That's kind of the wild west of church planning. You know, it's like, okay, that's what pastors do.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: You know, they don't know you're not supposed to be there on a Sunday morning.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Yeah. And so. And so, you know, when I went to Coleman First Baptist, same kind of thing, I was like, we weren't really looking to leave New York, and this was an opportunity. We felt like God was maybe call and that we were exploring what that might look like. And so kind of went to the church and said, hey, I think God's blessing this. Do you want to keep this pattern going? Is that something where, you know, traveling speaking, they were like, great, and it's been great. So been able to do both, hang out in both of those lanes, so to speak.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Cool. Well, part of the reason I bring that up is we have a previous podcast with Dr. Jeff Orge, who has a really great ministry book called Is God Calling Me? And one of the things that we talked about on the podcast with him was he kind of differentiates between a call to ministry leadership and your specific assignment. And so one of the things we discussed on that podcast was sometimes people can kind of pigeonhole themselves. Like, I am a pastor or I'm a student pastor, or I'm a children's pastor. But there are times where God gives us that specific assignment. But he also, for lack of a better phrase, kind of widens the lane, I think, sometimes where he allows us to stick our foot or stick a finger in these other ministry opportunities, even with different age groups, kind of like you have now. And so that's one of the things I love about kind of your story is I think it's. It shows that there's not just necessarily one lane or one specific assignment even at a particular time that you can have your main focus like you do as the lead pastor of your church. But God just kind of unexpectedly sometimes opens these other avenues to do ministry kind of on the side, for lack of a better phrase. But yeah, I love that.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: And if I can just put a second on that book, I give that book out all the time to young people. To me, it was so. It's so helpful.
Just the way. The way he's so practical, I find my. So if anybody's listening and is wondering, is God calling me? Let me just say, yeah, the State.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: Convention has some events coming up over the next year where you can get a copy of that book and explore your call.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Yep, that's right. So we do have the Explore your Call roundtables coming up. So you can go to the ABSC website and find Explore youe Call. And we teach a little bit of that book and then we give a copy of the book to all the folks that are there. So, yeah, that's cool that you do that.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Love it. I love it. And listen, in terms of the lanes, let's be honest, even the senior adults in your congregation. Senior adults. Just a grown up 8th grader. Right? Come on. You never outgrow. When do you outgrow the need to be told God loves you and has a plan for your life? That's right.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. The difference is you can get the eighth graders to mind. Sometimes the senior adults, you have a harder time getting them to mind.
That's cool. Well, hey, so one of the things, I guess really the main thing we wanted to talk about today was you were sharing with me when we were visiting previously, kind of getting ready for this event about a particular approach to scripture that you use with the Book of Corinthians called the Corinthian Grid. I had never heard of that, but I thought it was fascinating. So I thought it would be interesting for you to share that with our listeners on the podcast. So tell them a little bit about the Corinthian Grid and then kind of walk through. If I remember right, I think there were six steps Is that correct?
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the whole idea is to have a tool. And I think, you know, for youth in college especially, but I took my whole church through this and I hope that even, you know, all ages benefited.
But yeah, I mean, it's a tool to try to be practical in terms of really worldview and helping people think biblically.
And when we tell people like, well, just, just do what the Bible says. Right. I mean, that's, that's sort of the equivalent of when you're a kid, because I said so, you know, that's actually the right answer for a lot of life. That's not a bad answer. But at some point you want to be able to outgrow that a little bit. Right. And so what do you do when you tell a young person, like, do what the Bible says and they're actually willing to try it, you know, okay, this isn't for everybody, but for a young person who would say, no, I really am seeking to follow God, I really am seeking to honor God with my life.
How do I do what the Bible says? You're immediately going to bump up into a problem. And the problem is because the Bible was written so long ago, because the culture is so different, you're going to bump into sooner or later. But the Bible doesn't address my specific issue. Right. So, you know, the things that. It's those gray areas, right. I mean, no student has ever come up to me and been like, I don't know, Tom, some of my friends think this is okay, others don't. What do you think about murder? You know, I think you need new friends, you know. Right. I mean, but, but it's stuff like, you know, what do we do about this in this world of AI and what do we do with social media? What do we do with all these things and how do you navigate that stuff? Because they're like, look, I'm looking it up. You know, in the, in, in the old days when we had paper Bibles, you know, you had the concordance. Yeah. Well, go ahead. You know, look up chat GPT in your concordance. Look up, look up, you know, meta in your concordance.
So it's hard to know how do you navigate these things.
And so you end up, if you're not careful, if you don't have a really good answer for that question, how to help a young person, you're probably going to end up in one of three places, none of which is where you want to be. One is if you're not careful, if you don't really Thoughtfully think through a biblical worldview.
And why do you behave in a certain way? Why are those ethical choices? What are the principles behind it? You'll end up either in legalism. Right? So this is just, you know, legalism is sort of our attempt to get some leverage on God by our good deeds, which is ridiculous to think that we could get leverage on God. But it's. If we do these good deeds now, God has to bless me. So we're in this legal contract, and I do what I do out of a legalistic mindset. And then, of course, the other end of that spectrum would be the antinomian mindset. Well, you know, I'm free in Christ, aren't I? So, you know, I'm getting, you know, wasted every weekend because, hey, I'm free in Christ. Well, you know, that. That's no good either. So. So if we don't want legalism, we don't want ananomianism. Most of us would just sort of default to what I would call traditionalism. And I think we're in this current more than we want to admit. And that's just. We get our ethics, we get our biblical worldview simply from just. This is what I've always thought, and this is what my sort of echo chamber has taught me. Just traditionalism is what I'm calling it. Those here. Here are the traditions. So how do we. How do we break free from that?
And so, because we're still left with, at the end of the day, you know, a young person is saying, hey, my issue is not addressed. And the stuff that is addressed, like a young person's never come. You know, like, I dream of the day when a seventh grader's like, hey, I've been up all night, Pastor Tom. I'm trying to decide how many cubits high the tabernacle wall needs to be. You know, is there anything in here that can. I'm like, oh, thank you. You know, I really want to know the genealogy of Noah. Is there any way, you know, those aren't the burning questions in their life, so how can we help them? And there's lots of ways to do it. And for me, you look at a place like Corinth, and it's a good place to start. We all know Corinth. Wild city, right? And so you've got this crazy. You know, some preachers describe it as like Las Vegas, you know, wild. What happens in Corinth stays in Corinth kind of thing, but also Los Angeles, a center of culture. And think about all that's produced there culturally and New York, Right. A center of finance kind of all rolled into one. Well, that means you've got folks coming from all parts of Greece and they go to Corinth and they go there to make it big or to do whatever. Well, a lot of them encounter the gospel now. They're saved in this world that is utterly not necessarily hostile to the gospel, though it can be at times. But certainly they don't have a category for that. So what do you do? How do you navigate that? And that to me was what I think. The apostle Paul, he was laying down these principles because the word of God is timeless, right? We know the grass withers, the flower fades. The word of God stands forever. Isaiah 48 tells us so. We know the word of God is true. And if a student saying, I want to follow the word of God, or anybody for that matter, what are those principles? The Corinthian grid arranges some of the key passages in the book of Corinthians to try to get at some application questions to help a student or help anybody walk through and come to a well reasoned, thoughtful position on an ethical issue that they get now from the word of God. And that's a lot better than I guess, I guess we do this or don't do this. I guess we do this behavior or don't do this behavior because Mama told me not to. Or again, when you're young, Mama told me not to is not bad advice.
But you know, a college student needs to, to be able to say, well, ethically, I've got some principles derived from the word of God. I've distilled those and I try to apply those in my life because eventually.
[00:21:20] Speaker C: As new issues provide themselves, Mama's not always there to tell you what to do. So you've got to figure out, how did Mama come to that conclusion herself so that you can come to that conclusion for other issues.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: That's exactly right. And think about how fast things are changing. Mama didn't know she had to weigh in on an issue that are the next generation. You know, I always joke when I introduce people at our like we call it Discover first. It's like our new members class for churches. And I always joke like, hey, this is the Baptist faith and message. It was adopted in 2000. You may be wondering why it had to be adopted in 2000. That's because it updated 1963, which updated the 19, you know, whatever. And. And you may wonder why does a statement of faith need to be updated if the Bible's Timeless. And I always say the Bible is timeless, but culture is always changing. And that's my point. And I always, there's usually young people in the room and I always say, and you guys, I can't wait to see the Baptist Faith and Message 2050 if the Lord. Terry's. The Baptist Faith and Message 2100. Does your, does your AI avatar need to be saved? Or you like, you know, I'm joking with him. But here's what I tell them. Whatever crazy thing comes at you, here's what I know the word of God is going to be sufficient, you're going to be okay, you know, and that's the heart of this Corinthian grid. And so there's, it kind of walks you through these six principles and I'll just do like a really high level flyover. But the first one is out of First Corinthians 8. That's the famous passage where there's a big fight in the Corinthian church about meat that's been sacrificed to idols. It's just about splitting the church. You know, it may not be a big deal to us, but can you imagine? You know, and so you've got this, this culture where part of, part and parcel with idol worship was having this big feast in the idol's temple. And so you would, you would bring your animal and part of it, you'd, you'd provide to provide for the feast, part would go to the, provide for the temple and all this, the pagan priests and priestesses and cult prostitutes and who knows what else. And then anything left over was just sort of wholesale sold to the grocery store. Right. And so can you imagine, you're a mature believer and you're walking through the stores, at the grocery store and you see this meat that's whatever 10 drachmas a pound or whatever. But then you see this other stuff over here that says meat that's been already sacrificed to an idol and it's half off. Yeah, well, you know, you're a mature Christian. You're saying idols aren't real. And I'm thrifty, boom. This is more money I can give to the poor. This is great. You know, and so you're checking out. Meanwhile, a brand new Christian who just got saved out of this world of darkness sees you buying the idol meet and thinks, oh, you know, every time I look at this idle meat and every time I think about it, it draws me back to those dark days in my past. I want to see these two. Who's right? Who's Wrong.
[00:23:56] Speaker C: You know, both well meaning, both well intentioned, just on different sides. One's thinking, I'm just trying to put food on the table for my family. One thing. And I just want to make sure that we're honoring the Lord exclusively.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: That's right. And both make a great case. You know, one is going, hey guys, we're free in Christ. The other is going, hey, this is, this is, this is Satan food. Like, what are you doing? You know?
You know, I imagine they're just looking at it and maybe some of them got snarky and would eat it right in front of the others. You know, it's sacrilegious. I can't get, you know.
So Paul weighs in, in 1 Corinthians 8 with that famous like now about food because the letter's being read. So you can imagine, you could have heard a pin drop. They've been waiting for this. And when they finally get to now about food that's been sacrificed to idols and everybody's like, oh, here it goes.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Both sides probably think he's about to get the other guy.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Get them, Paul.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Get him, Paul. Get em, Paul. They just know it. And then what does he start with? We all possess knowledge, wink, wink. I mean, he's just baiting them at that point. We all possess knowledge, wink, wink. And they're like, yeah, we all possess knowledge. Not you, you. And then he says, but of course, knowledge puffs up and everybody's like, oh, deflated. Deflated, exactly. Pen pop.
But love, love builds up. And that's a whole new way to look at your rights as a Christian. What love? Oh, okay. And so I won't belabor it, just interest time. Of course you can see how if you want and I hope today at the student lunch, and I hope I'm going to give this as a tool thinking if a youth minister needs a. Sure. Every student minister has already mapped out in great detail all of their teaching curriculum for the next 12 months. Right. But should it be the case that someone could be blessed by a sort of prepack.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: What you're saying is somebody's preaching this tomorrow night.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: That's exactly.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: This is a Tuesday. Tomorrow's Wednesday. There's some student pastor in there that they've been at the econ for the last two days and this is going to be exactly what they need for their Wednesday night message.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: And it's okay because they were at econ, they were doing the Lord's work and didn't have time to pray. Prepare a sermon.
[00:25:57] Speaker C: Way to be here.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: And do you know how I know that they will do that? Because I've done it.
But this could be a multi week series where you kind of walk through and just make that available for free if they want that, if it helps them, if not, that's okay too. But, but the, the first one then being, there's sort of a principle with each of these in an application. So the principle is obviously, do not cause the weak to stumble. And you remember, you remember where Paul goes with this. He's like, hey, listen, idols aren't real. And you can just hear that half of the church being like, oh, here it comes. Yeah, idols aren't real. We're free. And then he hits him with, but not everyone knows this. And Paul says, look, man, you guys got to think, what's loving? You're causing your brother to stumble. He said, if it were up to me, I'd rather be a vegetarian. If that meant, like, Christ gave up his life for your brother. You can't give up your dinner plans. Come on, where's the love? And so, man, what a way, what a building block for a Christian ethic to say, yeah, I'm free to do this thing and choose not to out of love. So the application, does this cause the weak or love doesn't cause the weak to stumble? The application would be, would this cause new Christians to stumble? And you can immediately see there's countless examples where you could tease out in a, in a student ministry setting or a collegiate ministry setting.
Okay, here's some things that, yeah, you could give. You could, that could be fruit for a lot of discussion. And then the second and third one kind of go together.
First Corinthians 6:12 is all things, you remember, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are beneficial. It's great, right? So the question is not, you know, do I have a right? Am I free in Christ to do this or not? The question is, what's going to profit? So there's lots of things that, yes, technically you're allowed to do, but there's a big difference in what's legal and what's profitable. And so you could talk about that. And then that verse continues. He says, again, all things are lawful for me.
Which I think was a, I think it was a Corinthian clapback. I think it was like, like that must have been a Corinthian slogan, like, all things are lawful for me. And I think Paul knew people were misquoting him and so he was providing a necessary corrective. But what I love is he doesn't. He doesn't back down. Like. Like, if you'd been quoted like, this is kind of a sidebar. But if in your ministry you'd been seen as sort of the antinomian. Antinomian just means, like, law. Utter lawlessness. Right. Anti. Against. No, most. The law. Yeah. So you're just living against the law. You would, I think, feel very defensive and feel the need to, like. No, no, I didn't say that or misunderstand. I love how Paul doubles down. All things are lawful for me.
That is an amazing pastoral move to, like, double down on grace. He's not going to put them back. Remember Galatians? He's not going to put them back under that yoke. Incredible to me, anyway. All things are lawful for me. He freely admits that. But I won't be mastered by any thing. It's so good. He's not going to allow himself to be mastered by anything but Christ. And so you might ask yourself the principle on that one, you know, don't allow yourself to be mastered by anything except Christ. Does this have an addictive element to it? Is this something that could master me?
You know, First Corinthians 6, flee sexual immorality. And of course, that'd be a great and necessary topic for a. I could see in a youth sermon series there's. And then flee, run away from, you know, not. Let. Let's see how close we can skirt the issue. But let's strive toward purity and let's run toward that.
So then do not put yourself in situations of obvious temptation. Does this obviously tempt me against God's will? First Corinthians 9 is where he talks about. This would be the fifth one. The fifth principle, First Corinthians 9 would be, you know, hey, to the Jew. I became like a Jew in the sense of being under the law. Probably not to cause them to stumble. To the Greek, I became, as a Greek, I became all things to all people so that by all possible means I might reach some. I mean, his point was, life is short. We got to reach people. We can't be going around wasting a lot of time demanding our rights. We got to be out there reaching people. And so the application on that one, does this help me or hinder me in reaching others with Christ?
And then the last one, First Corinthians 10:31, sort of sums it all up. Whether you eat or drink, it's almost like an exasperated Paul is like, listen, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, just do it for the glory. Of God. And does this glorify God? Now with those six principles, you start to see, okay, so it's sort of like a formula. I know on the podcast they can't see me hold this little card up, but I'm imagining somebody kind of walking issue through here and they say, well, you know, does it cause people to stumble? No, I don't think so. Does it profit my relationship with Christ? Yeah, maybe that's neutral. I'm thinking about this thing, this habit, and some of my friends say it's okay. Some say I should avoid it. You know, does it have an addictive element? No, I mean, does it. Does it tempt me against God's will? Not really help me hinder. Reach others for Christ. I think I'm good there. Glorify God. Okay, then I would say, go enjoy your issue.
And enjoy your issue based on, like, real word of God worldview. Not just, well, but this denomination says it's okay, and this one says it's not. And this one, like, that's. Why not build it right there on the word of God. You just need a little help. You need that. That bridging the context between. And that's what the Corinthian grid can do. If, on the other hand, the student says, does it cause others to stump? Well, I notice when I do this, other people, you know, want to turn away from God or, you know, yes, it tempts me against God's will. I'm currently addicted to it. And no, it doesn't help me. Well, I would say, well, then, you know, that's a red flag.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: Yes, probably. Probably something best avoided, Right?
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Probably something best avoided. But even then, it's not me, your minister, telling you, you can't do this. It's you discovering those red flags for yourself out of the word of God. And.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: Or you got to say, hey, I know that this isn't going to help me, it's not going to help others, it's not honoring to God, and I'm choosing to do it anyway. What does that say? Like, it catches you on both sides either, hey, I have a reason why I'm not going to do this or why I'm going to do this. So that if anyone asks, I've at least thought through it, or it makes me come to terms with if I'm just being disobedient.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. It has a diagnostic quality to it, doesn't it?
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. And I love that it gives people the opportunity to think for themselves. To allow room for the Holy Spirit to move. Because you're right, there is a time when you're younger that you're going to be spoon fed. But especially for those who have charge over teenagers, whether parents or student pastors, even for those doing college in a young adult ministry, very rarely it seems like are people encouraged to learn to think for themselves. They just either want to be spoon fed or we as adults just want to spoon feed them. Because that's a lot easier. It takes a lot more time to do that. But it does equip them for life.
[00:32:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: And I love that.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: Do you guys ever read any of like Adam Grant, like socio sociologist stuff of philosophy and but, but his not a Christian author but he's got these books like Think Again I think was the one it's all about, like why do people change their mind? And he's got this great line, I think I'm gonna misquote him here. But something like the only person who can change someone's mind is that person. Yeah, like, you know, that's really. As a communicator, as a preacher, that's really been beneficial to me. It's like listen. And that's what the Corinthian grid, to me that's what makes it a little more effective. It's like this has got to be on you. It's exactly what you just said.
You're the only one who can really change your mind on something.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's good. Well that's super helpful. That's a great resource. Thanks for sharing that with us.
Beautiful man. Well, thanks again Tom for taking time to join us today. I know it's a super busy day. You were in one state yesterday and another state today and you'll be in another state later today.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: And speak you're willing if there's no deer on the side of the road, it's all good.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Well, thanks for hanging out with us again, Brock. Thanks for being here with us, bro. Absolutely sharing with us. And as always, Again, check out leaddefend.org and don't forget about the explore your call events that are ongoing every semester for students who either know for sure they're called to ministry or wrestling with the call to ministry. For the spring of 2025, we've got five roundtables in different parts of the state. And if you're listening to this some months after, maybe even a year or two after, this is going to be an ongoing project for us, coming along students and local churches and trying to help students who feel called to ministry and having those events and they're going to be all over the place. So always check out that Explore youe Call website. Well, thanks again for joining us for Lead Defend Podcast and we will see you next time.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: That's it for this episode of Lead Defend. To hear more episodes from the Lead defend crew, visit absc.org podcasts if you liked what you heard, rate and review us on your favorite podcast listening site. Want to learn more information about the next Lead Defend conference? Visit leaddefend.org.
