[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the Lead Defend podcast, a show designed to help you grow in faith and leadership as you navigate the.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Stages of young adulthood. We address important faith topics and provide.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: Practical life tips helping you build up your faith as you engage a changing culture. Now, here are your hosts. Well, welcome to the Lead to Fam podcast. Glad to have you back for another episode. I am.
[00:00:33] Speaker C: Bill Brock is here as well.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: All right.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: And so we are rolling along, man. Hope you have enjoyed our previous episodes that we've had. We have a very special guest with us today. Guy I am super glad to have with us we have Mr. Lee Strobel with us today. Lee, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Thanks, Bill and Brock, Appreciate it. Great to be with you.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: So glad to have you. And so we actually are going to have the chance to do two different podcasts with Lee, really over the next couple of months. We are at Econ right now, the evangelism conference that is held. And Lee spoke this morning, did a great job speaking again tonight. And then we also get the honor of having Lee at Lead Defend in March of 2025 as well. So we are excited to have you there.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah, looking forward to that. It's going to be fun.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: Are you enjoying so much time in the state of Arkansas?
[00:01:16] Speaker B: I love Arkansas. I love Arkansas. I've been here. Gosh, I think my first time was back when I was at Chicago Tribune. Came down here to cover a big case. I was legal editor and there was a big landmark case being tried. Came down for that and thought, this is nice. My cousin actually moved down here when he retired from the advertising industry and looked around the country, said, I'm going to live in Arkansas.
[00:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, we're glad to have you today and look forward to having you Lead Defend here in a couple months.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Look forward to it.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: So probably my guess would be at least a fair amount of our listeners will be familiar with your name, maybe your story. But obviously we'll have some listeners who you will be new to them and don't know your story. So take a couple of minutes and just kind of share with folks your story because you have an interesting story, not just for your own salvation, but the way that God has kind of taken that experience and used it to really share Jesus all around the world.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I was an atheist for much of my life. My background is in journalism and law. I was legal editor of the Chicago Tribune and married young. I was 20, she was 19.
I was the atheist. She was an agnostic. And then she ended up coming to Faith several years later and I thought that was the end of our marriage. I was going to walk out and divorce her.
But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from this cult that she's gotten involved in if I could just disprove the resurrection of Jesus, because I understood, even as an atheist, that's the key. And so I took my journalism training and legal training, spent two years investigating the historical data concerning the resurrection of Jesus until November 8th of 1981, when I realized, in light of the powerful and persuasive case for the resurrection of Jesus, it would take more faith to maintain my atheism than to become a Christian. So that's the day I repented of my sin, received Jesus as my forgiver and leader, and my life, like her life, began to change for the better and wanted to stay in journalism. I thought it'd be good to have Christians in journalism, but. But God had a different plan. And I took a 60% pay cut and went to work at a church and never intending to write anymore, but started to do books. And Now I've written 72 books and travel around, speaking at conferences and churches and events and doing fundraising for ministries around the country and around the world. And so it's been a great adventure. God's really taken us on a surprising turn.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah, very good. Well, so Case for Christ is the book that you're really well known for. Kind of tells that story a little bit. I think before I encountered that book, I had a class in my undergrad work that you wrote called about the.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: Inside the Mind of Uncle Mary and Mary.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: I lost it for a second.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: You know, it's funny you bring that up, because that was a book, my first Christian book. I'd done a book when I was an atheist still, but it was my first Christian book. And the idea was, let's take a peek into the mind of non believers to see if we could be more effective in reaching them. But what's funny is I wrote that it came out in early 90s, how outdated it is in many ways. You know, as young people who are listening now will understand.
You know, I'm 73 years old. I grew up in an age that was quite different than today. And so a lot of the insights in that book which were relevant back in the 90s, some of them are relevant, some of them aren't. Some of the points in the book. So it's interesting that today, if I were to rewrite that book, first of all, I wouldn't be the person to do it, but maybe someone listening is that the mind of the unbeliever today is quite different than it was back then.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: Absolutely. Today we wouldn't even be able to assume the gender of Harry or Sam.
So it's changed a little bit. But the heart behind that book really is how do we understand how lost people are thinking for the purpose of sharing the gospel with them? And what we wanted to talk to you a little bit about today, we got to hear you in a breakout session this morning, the pre conference before econ, and you shared a little bit about six different styles, if I remember right, six different styles of evangelism. And so let's just talk a little bit about evangelism. What role has evangelism played in your own life?
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, God has given me a passion to reach people like I was atheists, skeptics, non believers. That's my passion. I do it a lot through apologetics, giving evidence for the faith. But that's just a tool. The ultimate goal is to win them to Christ. And so that's my focus individually, as my personal life, but as well as my writing and speaking, I want to see people come to faith. So. But you know, I remember I told the story this morning, but when I was a new believer, I moved to Missouri to be editor of a newspaper after the Chicago Tribune, and I joined a Baptist church. And they were starting a mission church in the south part of the community. And so I thought, well, this is perfect. I'll be part of that new plant down there. And so we were sitting around with about 10 of us at Sunday school one morning. And at the end, one of the guys said, can I make an announcement? I'm going to be going this afternoon knocking on doors of strangers in the neighborhood and trying to share Jesus with them. And if any of you all believe in God, you'll come with me.
And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't want to do that.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: I believe in God. I don't know if I believe in.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: What you're saying exactly. It was like, that's what I got to do. Because I mean, if I have to, I will. But golly, that's not me. That just doesn't fit my personality and so forth. And I began to question my own salvation. Maybe I'm not thoroughly saved or whatever.
And I've come to realize that for a lot of people, they expect others to share Christ the same way they do. And a lot of pastors are extroverted. And for them to go door to door and share Christ is natural or not a hindrance but for a lot of other folks like me, who tends to be more introverted, it's an impediment. And then I learned that. Wait a minute. If you look through the pages of the New Testament, you see different approaches, different styles that people have. We all don't have to do it the same way, and we can celebrate each style. I can celebrate those that go door to door and try to share Christ, but I hope they celebrate what I do. I write books, and I use evidence and apologetics to try to reach people.
So there are about six different styles. My good buddy and ministry partner Mark Middelburg's written a book on this called Contagious Faith. He actually deals with five styles. I had a six style. But the idea is, let's all use a style that fits who we are, because we're more likely to do it if you lead someone to Christ and say, hey, you're now a Christian. Let's go pass out tracts at the mall. They may do that, but that's probably the last time they're ever going to do it. But if you find out a way to share Christ consistent with how God wired you up, you. You're going to use it the rest of your life.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I think evangelism, at least in my perception, is a lot a thing. A lot of people, when they hear about, their first response is feeling guilty because they're not doing enough, and then their second feeling is intimidation because they're not really sure how to do it. So are you saying that maybe the reason people have so much intimidation and potentially guilt is maybe they're trying to do it a way that God didn't design for them to do it?
[00:08:53] Speaker B: Exactly. So, for example, someone who is comfortable knocking on doors of strangers and trying to share Jesus or whatever, they have what's called the direct style. And we see that in Scripture. We see Peter in Acts, chapter two, who gets up before a crowd and says, hey, you just murdered the Messiah. You're in deep weeds, everybody. And they went, oh, no, what do we do? What do we do? And, you know, we have 3,000 come to faith, and the church is born. Well, Peter was a direct guy. Peter's the one that cut off the ear of the guy in the Garden of Gethsemane, for goodness sake. Peter's the only guy that got out of the boat and walked on the water.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: So direct, he tried to tell Jesus how to be the Messiah.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So God bless him, he's a direct guy. Direct people tend to be extroverted they tend to want to cut to the chase and not beat around the bush. God bless them. I'm glad that God made those kind of people. That ain't me.
Another style is the intellectual style. And we see that in Paul in Acts chapter 17 where he's on Mars Hill and he's sharing with the philosophers of the day that fit him. Paul was one of the most educated people of his generation. He was a brilliant, brilliant thinker. And for him to build a case from the unknown God to the real God and so forth, you know, was masterful. And there are some people who use apologetics, evidence for the faith reasons why we believe to share the gospel not as a way to just win an argument, but to win someone to faith. Well, God bless them. I'm glad we have apologists. Certain people are reached that way. Another style is the testimonial style, you know, and that's John or the blind man in John chapter 9, where Jesus heals this blind guy. He gets dragged before the religious leaders and they start cross examining him, what's going on, what happened? And he said, look, I was blind and now I see. Deal with it, you guys. Figure it out. So some people are really good at telling their stories.
We all have a testimony who've come to faith in Christ and we all ought to be able to tell it well. But some people, that's what they. And this is what I do. I travel the world and I say, look, I was an atheist. Here's how that narcissistic, immoral, drunken lifestyle affected my family and affected my marriage and so forth. My wife became a Christian. I began investigating the faith. Here's what I discovered. Then I pull in the intellectual style, the apologetics. I, I tell the evidence that it convinced me. Then on November 8th of 1981, I realized this is true. I received Christ as my forgiver and leader. I became adopted as a son of God. And here's how my life has changed. It's just my story, but this is my style. And some people are adept at storytelling and be able to communicate and relate it to the other person. Not just tell the story, but to relate. What about you? Have you had experience like this? Or have you ever had anything like this happen to you?
And so that's another legitimate style. Then there's a relational style. This is for people who are empathetic and warm and friendship oriented, kind people who just make friends.
It's remarkable. I have people I know who just give them a piece of pie and a cup of coffee and they can change the world by making a friend. And let's have coffee and let's sit and talk. And. And I mentioned the story this morning of Julie Harney, who was part of our church, and she came to our training and she'd never shared her faith before. And she realized, wait a minute, this is my style. She was very introverted. She could never knock on the door of a stranger. But she's great at building one on one friendships. And so we taught her, how do you do that? And how do you, as a part of that, share Jesus with people? So she just became on fire for sharing her faith through her personal friendships and led 18 people to Christ in the first year.
And to this day, that's what she does. She was off the field. She was never. Here's a woman who probably never would have shared her faith, but now she's an evangelist in her own style. So God bless her. We ought to celebrate that. And then there's a serving style. And this is Dorcas in Acts, chapter nine, who made clothing for the poor people of the community, and through that, influenced them for Christ. And then when she died, God sent apostles to raise her from the dead. So, you know, there's a benefit to having the serving style, but this is Franklin Graham, you know, this is. You know, there's a disaster somewhere, a hurricane hits or a wildfire. We're going to go help people. And I'm telling you, this is powerful. This is powerful. 87% of the relief efforts after Hurricane Harvey in Houston, where I live, were churches. And I've got stories of people. A guy in my neighborhood, a Jewish engineer and lawyer, retired, came to faith because people from the church came and served him in his time of need and opened him up to the gospel. So this is an incredibly important style. Not to serve people as a way of avoiding evangelism, but to share Christ as part of a way that we serve people because we love them. And then finally, the invitational style. And this is a woman at the. Well, the Samaritan woman in John chapter four, who realizes, oh, my goodness, I'm talking to the Messiah. And she runs into town, invites some folks, hey, this guy's telling me stuff about myself that nobody knows. And you got to hear this guy. He may be the Messiah. And several people did come to faith as a result. And some people are good at inviting others to come to hear the gospel. They may not be the most articulate people, but they're very persuasive. And so they say, golly, I got a Great pastor at our church. I'm going to fill a van and invite people to come to church every Sunday so they can hear this guy and come to faith. So they work in partnership with others, take them to place it to a Christian movie, for instance, a Christian concert, and as part of that, share their story or share a testimony and share the gospel. So those are six different styles. They're all legitimate, and we ought to celebrate them all. And my buddy Mark Middleburg's written a new book on this called Contagious Faith, and we'll train people how to do that. He's trained 4 million people around the world on how to share their faith naturally and effectively.
But, you know, let's not pigeonhole people. Let's not say, you gotta do it the way I do it.
Whatever way you do it is better than not doing it.
[00:15:16] Speaker C: And I like even one of the things you alluded to in there is sometimes, like, you may have a preferred style, but it might have overlaps. At one point in the relationship with someone, you might do this way. And then an invitation opens a door because you've been serving them. And sometimes the different styles can overlap.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: It's a good point. We all ought to be serving other people. We all ought to be sharing our testimony. We all ought to be sharing our faith. Some people do it differently, and some people are particularly good at doing certain aspects of it. But, you know, let's work in tandem, too. I mean, I was thinking of a woman at our church who had her brother, who was a skeptic. And so she invited Mark Middleburg and I to lunch. And so we came to lunch and I shared my story.
And then Mark Middleburg spoke. And then this woman, her sister, the guy's sister, Spok. And we realized we were all sharing Christ from a different perspective. I was doing a testimonial style. Mark was doing an apologetics or intellectual style. She was doing a relational style. And it took all of us working together to reach her brother.
[00:16:23] Speaker C: And you mentioned this book a minute ago that a friend of yours wrote. And so maybe that's a good first step to the question I'm about to ask. But, you know, as a pastor, I think about these six styles, and now I'm thinking, okay, so I don't just have to lead one evangelism training class. Now I've got to figure out how to lead six for these six different types of people. How can church leaders, pastors, begin to encourage and develop people in their own personal preference of evangelism?
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark Middleburg my ministry partner, has written a new curriculum.
We together did a curriculum called Contagious Christianity Contagious Faith several years ago, and that's trained people all around the world in 22 languages and so forth. This is the next iteration of that. So it's built on the styles. So you don't have to teach six different courses for each style. But what we do is we teach in a way that has each person awaken to what their style is, and then we're able to provide them chapters in a book that will deal with that particular style and developing that. So the Contagious Faith curriculum and book, I think, are great resources for pastors to implement in their churches.
[00:17:34] Speaker C: That's great.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And to preach on it, to do a message just like I did and do the six styles. And what's funny is people sitting in the pews will all of a sudden, oh, that's me. I never realized that I've kind of got that intellectual style. And gosh, I'd like to develop that. I'd like to learn more, I'd like to study apologetics. I'd like to be better at sharing the evidence and so forth. And then you may have people get together who have that style and say, let's put on a debate. Let's get an atheist and a Christian debate, the resurrection. And we'll invite the community in and we'll kind of use that intellectual style as a way to reach people in the community who are looking for answers and so forth. So to me, it's just very exciting to watch people who've always been on the sidelines get involved, get excited, get productive, see God using them, see people come to faith. I mean, that's what really lights things up.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. And I love that because I would agree with what you're saying, what you said in the pre conference this morning, that so many Christians, I think, avoid evangelism because they just feel like the direct approach, because that's the one you usually hear.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Stereotypical approach.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: That's the one that you usually hear, and that's the stories that you usually hear. You don't hear as many of the relational stories or the intellectual stories, or so I.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: And I've got friends who've got the direct style. Greg Steer, I don't know if you know that name, but Greg's a good friend.
[00:18:53] Speaker C: Yeah, we've had I Believe him on the podcast.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Have you? Oh, Greg's awesome. Very good friend of mine. In fact, I'm going to see him next month. But Greg's out of direct style. Yes, he does. You know, for him, you know, that's who he is. And God bless him. God's used him in remarkable ways. But golly, I see people like Julie Harney, who I mentioned, this introverted, quiet housewife who just realizes, I love to become friends with people and just share Jesus with them. And God bless her, she's reaching people that Greg probably can't reach, you know, and I probably can't reach. But God can use her to reach them.
[00:19:28] Speaker C: Sometimes those are the ones who have. Maybe it takes a longer time. It's not going to. The decision is not going to be made. A seed maybe was planted at some point from somebody with a direct approach.
But the growing of the relationship, that seed taking root and showing fruit, might take a longer season.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: That's right. But isn't it great that we can do that for each other and we can celebrate that? You know, when Greg released someone to faith, I celebrate that when I have someone read my book in China and come to faith, he celebrates with me. And I use the intellectual style largely and my testimonial style. So I just think the body of Christ is diverse. That's a good thing because we're trying to reach a diverse group of people. Not everybody, you know, I mean, we could reverse this and say in our community, among non believers, there are some who are going to relate to the relational style. They're great at friendships. They want to build a friendship. Or the intellectual style because they've got questions and objections. Or maybe they just need someone to rattle their cage. They need a direct style so we can match up the non believers with the different styles of the believers. It's really kind of cool.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Yeah. I think one maybe challenge, I don't want to say correction, but maybe a challenge that some who have a more directional style would, would, would raise is for the, the styles of evangelism that are more relational.
They're. They're more service oriented. I think at times, maybe they've seen those who have pursued that route and great relationships are, are built, but they never quite get around to sharing the gospel. And so how do we encourage these, these ways of sharing the gospel, but also help people to see, hey, at some point you gotta have the conversation.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. Exactly. You know, if you're serving people and not giving them the gospel, you know what you are? You're a nice person. Well, that's good. God bless you. You're a nice person. But, you know, God doesn't tell Us just be nice people. He's given us a message that he wants us to share with the world. And so we really have to. And that's where the training comes in. We really have to help them transition into a spiritual conversation and then share the gospel in a way that is accessible to average folks. And absent that, then we're just nice people.
And we need to be people who are sharing this life changing, eternity altering gospel of Jesus Christ.
So yeah, it's a very good point. And that's where the training comes in.
How to transition and then how to share your testimony. You know, yes, some people have a testimonial style, they're particularly good at doing that. But all of us should be able to, in a short way be able to say our B.C. life, what we're like before Christ, how we met Jesus and how our life has changed. We all ought to be able to do that. We all ought to be able to share a basic gospel message and explain to someone how they come to faith in Jesus. So part of the training, the contagious faith training, is all of the above.
Identifying your style, how to use it, how to transition into a conversation, how to share the gospel and our testimony in a way that leads to a prayer, hopefully of repentance and faith.
[00:22:37] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, one time I heard a quote and I think we can tie it to our conversation today. But someone was asking about what translation of the Bible should they read? Which translation of the Bible is the best? And I heard a student pastor say the best translation of the Bible is the one that you'll actually read.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: And then I think, I think a similar thing for evangelism. What's the best approach to evangelism? What's the style to evangelism? It's the one that you'll actually do.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. If you come to faith, let's say you have a direct style and that's the only style you teach. And you twist somebody's arm and they go with you to knock on some doors and stuff, God bless them, but that's probably the last time they're going to do it. It's not going to become a lifestyle. Whereas Julie is out there all these decades later building friendship, sharing Jesus.
Give her a piece of lemon meringue pie and a cup of coffee and she will change the world one life at a time.
So if it fits someone's personality, they're more apt to use it.
[00:23:31] Speaker C: I would be considered getting saved again if pie and coffee were involved, especially Lemon meringue.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Well, along those lines, Brock, I heard somebody say years ago, and it's always stuck with me. God can use a bad evangelism presentation, but he can't use no evangelism presentation.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Oh, I like that.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: That's good. I don't remember when I heard that, but I was like, that's really.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: That's good. And it's so true. I mean, I bumble through things. I remember right after I became a Christian, I was still a newspaper editor in Chicago. And my boss came up to me one day and he said, man, you really handled yourself well today. I mean, it was a busy, busy news day. A lot of action, a lot of chaos, and, man, you were really. And then he knew that I went to church because he wanted me to go golfing one Sunday. And I said, I'm going to be at church. So he knew I was a Christian because I was a new Christian. And he said to me, what's this Christianity thing to you? And I panicked because I thought I never shared. I'm new at this. I'm not trained. I don't know what. So I said, do you really want to know? And he said, yeah, so let's go into your office. So we went in his office, closed the door, and for 45 minutes, I gave the most inept gospel illustration. I gave the most inept version of my testimony. I didn't know what I was doing. I was stumbling around, and it was probably the worst evangelism example that you could come across. But I remember after 45 minutes, walking out of that office, and it was like my entire life up until that moment had been a movie filmed in black and white, 16 millimeter, with grainy film and scratchy sound. That 45 minutes was like Dolby Stereo, Technicolor. And I walked out saying, I gotta have. This is what my life has to be about. I've gotta learn how to do this better. But there is nothing more important, more thrilling, more risk taking, more exciting, more fruitful than what I just experienced for 45 minutes. And, yes, I screwed it up, but I'm going to learn how to do it right. And it changed my life. That one conversation changed my life.
[00:25:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I love. I think it's Acts, chapter four. Whenever, you know, the disciples are giving the testimony in the face of persecution. And it says that they noticed that the disciples were uneducated and untrained, but they had been with Jesus. And I think a lot of times people get intimidated because they don't feel like they know enough they don't feel like they have the ability to answer all the questions and. And God can use the simple, humble testimony of what he's done in your life and what he's done for others.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: That is so true. You know, I'll tell you a little story.
I got a rare opportunity. One of the greatest evangelists of history was Luis Palau. Luis shared his faith with a billion people in his lifetime through his crusades and festivals around the world, through his books and radio show and so forth. A billion people. And he was a friend of mine, became a friend, and he was dying, had stage four cancer.
So I got to be with him before he died. And I was the last person to interview him before he died. And I actually have that interview in one of my books. I can't remember what book it was, but it was so powerful to sit down with this man who had shared his faith so many times. And at the end of that interview, he looked up at me with great intensity and he said, lee, he said, when you get to the end of your life and all is said and done, you will never regret being courageous for Christ.
And that was one of the last things he ever said to me before he died. And I've always remembered that, you know, and being courageous for Christ could very well mean taking what seems like a big, risky step with a friend and saying, gosh, do you know Jesus personally? Have you met him? Would you like to? Do you have questions? Do you have doubts? Because I love you, I care about you. And God's changed my life, he's changed my eternity, and I'd love to tell you about that. Would you be open to that? That's a very risky. It takes courage to do. Let's face it. It takes courage. And you know what? You get on your deathbed, and if you've had a friend, your life, and you've never taken that kind of risk with that friend, you're going to be on your deathbed and going, oh, why didn't I have the courage to just bring it up?
What's the worst thing could happen? He could say, not interested.
You know, So I go back to, you know, Luis Palau. At the end of your life, when all's said and done, you'll never regret being courageous for Christ. You'll never regret that moment that you stepped out in faith and just took a risk. And you know what? You may bring up the topic and they may blow you off, and it may be two years later they'll come back. Remember when you said, maybe Crisis happens in their life. I met a guy. He prayed for his brother. His brother was. This guy came to faith at one of the first Billy Graham rallies.
His brother was a patent attorney in Los Angeles and an atheist. And this guy tried to share Christ with his brother. His brother wasn't interested. He prayed for his brother for 48 years and 348 days. He counted 48 years, 348 days. And his brother resisted the whole time. He gave him a copy of My Bookcase for Christ. His brother wouldn't read it. But then his brother got pancreatic cancer. And that's when he took the book off the shelf. That's when he read the book. That's when he asked questions. That's when he came to faith in his deathbed, and we'll spend eternity with him in heaven.
But, you know, that guy was willing, courageously to broach it with his brother. And even though his brother shut him down, but to continue to persist, to pray and pray for opportunities and so forth.
And look what happened. The guy, his brother, he will spend eternity with him forever as a result.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: And sometimes, like you said, it's not even you necessarily having to bring it up. Something happens in their lives that they bring it up to you because they.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Know you're a Christian.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: The guy you worked with, you just told them going to church and couldn't play golf on Sunday. And then later on, it opens the door. This Guy prays for 48 years, and then finally that person opens the door.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: That's why I always tell people, drop a hint that you're a Christian in a new relationship. Just drop a hint. I remember we moved into a house in Chicago and a neighbor came over and we're chatting and he was into certain sports and things, and he said, what about you? What do you do? And I mentioned a few things and I said, yeah, I'm involved with my church. And just kind of left it at that because I knew this guy needs to know. Just plant a seed that I'm a follower of Christ. I'm part of a church. And you're right. When a crisis comes up, where are people going to turn? They're going to turn to those people who are Christians in their life. And gosh, that neighbor next to me, he goes to church. Maybe I should go talk to that guy. It's just those simple things that we can do to plant those sorts of seeds early on in a friendship. You never know how God's going to use that.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: I think our listeners would enjoy us Just talking stories about that those who've heard and shared and come to have known all day. This has been awesome. Lee, is there anything coming up that you're working on that you're excited about that you'd want people to know about?
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I got a new book coming out on March. March 18, called Seeing the Supernatural. And it's about, you know, the Bible talks about a supernatural realm, talks about things like angels and demons. It talks about heaven and hell. And how can we in the 21st century really believe that there's a supernatural realm? What evidence is there? I'm an evidentially based person. Show me the evidence. And so I deal with ways in which there is evidence today. I look at things like miracles. I look at things like near death experiences. I look at things like deathbed visions. I look at supernatural dreams that are breaking out all over the Middle east among Muslims who are meeting Jesus in dreams. Supernatural dreams talk about ways God reaches down and directly touches a life in a dramatic, supernatural way. And so I look at all this evidence that yes, there is a supernatural realm, and yes, there is a heaven, and yes, there is a hell. And so the Gospel is in it. It's a book that can be used to give to a skeptic or to a believer to just strengthen their. And to prepare people for the kind of questions that we get when we're sharing our faith. Then I have another book coming out in the fall called the Case for Christmas.
And I did a book by that title years ago. But this is a much more robust book. It's about 22,000 words and not huge. And it deals with what is the evidence for Christmas? Does the virgin birth really make sense? Is Christianity just a recapitulation of ancient mythologies like Mithras and so forth? Did the Old Testament really foretell the birth of the Messiah through a virgin or not?
Did Luke really screw up in his gospel when he talked about the census, as some secular historians claim? So I deal with some of the obstacles to belief as well as to deal with the misconceptions about Christmas. You know, to say, sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no inn and there was no innkeeper. That's not what Luke talked about. That's not what those Greek words mean.
[00:32:57] Speaker C: So hold on. Don't mess with the nativity scenes.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: It's even better story that Luke actually told. So that's coming out. And that book is a rather inexpensive book. It's only 22,000 worth. Not a huge book that I thought.
[00:33:10] Speaker C: You were going to say $22,000.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: I was probably. No, no, no. It is worse that people can give away. Use this as stocking stuffer. Give it away to relatives next Christmas as a little giveaway thing. Because it looks at. I think the subtitle is Investigating the True identity of the child in the manger. Who is he really?
So I'm excited about that. I just finished that, or I'm actually finishing it next week and about to send that off and praying that God uses that.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: Awesome. Well, folks want to follow you. Where can they find you?
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah, my website's least trouble dot com. But the best place to find me is on Twitter or X. I'm on there all the time.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Yes, you are.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: Do you. Awesome. Do I follow you?
[00:33:55] Speaker A: Probably not.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: Well, give me your handle. I'll follow you. I love it because it's like my journalism day. Like, headlines, you know, short, pithy. I sent one today. I usually tweet about four or five times a day.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: I saw you tweet last night. About the ball game.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: Yeah, about those chiefs.
So I love. I love X. And if anybody's listening, you know, follow me and I'll try to follow you back. And I've met. I've become friends. Can I tell you a really quick story?
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Yeah, go for it.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: You know who Sheila Walsh is?
[00:34:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: Okay. Sheila Walsh, Christian singer, host of television radio shows, written many books, great Christian. I never met her. Leslie had met her. I never met her, but we met on Twitter and we, you know, followed each other. And every once in a while she would ask me to pray about something, which I did. And then. So then I got very ill. In 2011, I almost died. And I was given an MRI. It was going to determine probably if I was going to make it or not. And so I sent her a tweet and I said, sheila, would you pray for me tomorrow morning at 9:00? I'm having an MRI. And it's really important. And so she said, yes, I will. So when you have an mri, they put earphones on you and they flip to a random radio station because it's really noisy in these machines. And they slide you into this machine. So they put these earphones on, they slide. Put on a random radio station. They slide me into the machine. I get into the machine. It's all dark and scary.
And over the earphones, I hear Sheila Walsh singing a song, a Christian song. They had flipped accidentally to a Christian radio station, and Sheila Walsh was singing a song. And it was like God was saying, I gotcha. Don't worry, Sheila's praying for you. You're going to be okay. And I was in the end. And I tell that story because there are many people on X on Twitter that I've met and we've become friends and I've met non believers who I've shared Christ with, met many Christians who, you know, we pray for each other or keep up on each other's lives. So it's a great form of relational connection these days. And so I finally got to meet Sheila and she just endorsed my new book and I did a TV show with her and she interviewed me. And such a sweet woman with that great Scottish accent. My wife's family's from Scotland and so that's. Yeah, it was really cool to hear.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: That's awesome. Well, thank you for being on this podcast with us. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you listeners for listening. And we, we want to let you know, you can check out all the information on lead
[email protected] and we would just want to encourage you to continue to check back there. Look at 2025. We're working on 2026. Lee, glad to have you with us. Hey, I have one burning question I would love to ask. As we wrapped up of all the stuff that you've written, what's probably your favorite book that you've written?
[00:36:55] Speaker B: It's always the next book. You know what I mean? You know, Case for Christ has had the biggest impact and God's used it in ways I describe it like hitting a pop up in Wrigley Field that should have been caught by the center fielder, but the wind of Chicago takes it for a home run and I feel like I hit the ball. It was a pop up. It should have been caught. It should have been a book nobody read. But the Holy Spirit took it out of the ballpark for his own reasons. And I, I just stand and marvel at what God does to that book. I feel like I had no connection with it.
But it's always the next book, you know, because you're excited. You're in the midst. I'm just finishing up this Christmas book. I'm so excited about this book. You're ready for Christmas again? I'm ready for Christmas, man. Bring it on.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Well, that's cool. Well, again, thanks for listening to this podcast. And I know a few of you may be thinking Lead Defend podcast, Defend apologetics, lead leadership, but we didn't really talk either one of those, but I would say that we did because one of my favorite definitions of leadership is Just simply people you have influence over. Leadership, to an extent is influence. And we all have people that God has put in our circle that are meant to be used for a variety of ways. But one of the ways he may want to use us in those relationships is evangelism. And so if you have a fear of evangelism or you thought there was only one style, hopefully this has been super helpful for you about that. And never forget, one of the things I've encountered in my years in ministry is sometimes people are like, I just don't have the testimony. And I try to remind them all the time, okay, you may not have been the atheist or you may not have been the drug addict, but you were the good, moral person who was still separated from God. And truth be told, most people in our circles of influence are people who their testimony is not that they were this really bad person, but they were a good person who is still separated from God. And so I think it's important to help people see, if you're a listener and you're like, man, I just don't have that dynamic of a testimony. No, no, no, you have the testimony.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: Most people have not to keep going here. But that was my wife's story. She said, I'm not an atheist like you. Yeah, you know what? 5 to 10% of people are atheists. I have a limited group that I'm totally directly relating to. I said, you tried to be a good person. You just couldn't put the puzzle pieces together. You know, how Jesus fit in. And when you realize they were a sinner needed salvation, that story everybody can relate to. And so, boy, I'm glad you brought that up. Never think, oh, if I'd only been an axe murderer, I could have had a better testimony.
[00:39:13] Speaker C: No, there are all the ways I could have.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: The best testimony is I tried to be a good person. And I realized that's not enough.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: It wasn't enough. So be encouraged. There are lots of different ways to do evangelism. And you have the same testimony as a quote, unquote good person. As somebody who was in prison or a drug addict or whatever, you were a sinner separated from God. So don't downplay that testimony. Find some people to share that with. Thanks again for listening to this edition of the podcast and we'll see you at a future one. That's it for this episode of Lead Defend. To hear more episodes from the Lead defend crew, visit absc.org podcasts if you liked what you heard, rate and review.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Us on your favorite podcast. Listening site.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Want to learn more information about the.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: Next Lead Defend conference, visit leaddefend.org.
