Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the Lead to Fan podcast. We are glad to be here with you today and glad that you are with us. I am Bill, and co hosting with.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm here, Brock Caldwell.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Brock Caldwell, man, We're glad to have Brock. If you have been listening over the last couple of months, you know that we have transitioned. Ryan is out and he has gone to greener pastures.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Moment of silence. Wow. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Greener pastures? That makes it sound really, really bad. Ryan's doing great.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's good, man. But too much for his plate to do this. And so we are glad to be able to continue this in a little different way. And our first kind of full guest that we've got with us is Dr. Jeff Orange. Dr. Orange, we are so glad to have you with us today.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Thanks for inviting me. It's an honor.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: So for our listeners who may not be familiar with you, just tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and kind of what you do and how God's worked in your life to the point where you are now.
[00:00:56] Speaker C: Well, I've been in ministry for a number of years. I've done several different things. I planted a church in Portland, Oregon, and then after that became the executive director of the Northwest Baptist Convention. And that led me on to become the president of Gateway Seminary, where I served for 20 years last year. Big life change. I thought I was retiring from the seminary to a life of teaching and writing and mentoring for younger leaders, but God had a different plan, and I became the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention. And so in that role, I'm primarily the administrative officer that leads and coordinates the work of the Southern Baptist Convention, especially that part of it that's supported by the Cooperative Program.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: All right. As they say, the best laid plans of mice and men.
Well, we are grateful to have you with us today. Dr. Orge is a guest at the evangelism conference this year, and we are glad to have him here. He is going to be speaking in the afternoon session. Of course, that'll be after this. But we're glad to have this podcast with you. So one of the reasons when I found out that you were going to be here, I was very excited, is you wrote a book years ago that has had a big impact, not just on me, but with some students that we've had the chance to work with over the years and with a new initiative that we're starting in the state that started last fall for us in 2024, that we're really ramping up in 2025 and beyond. A little, small book, but a really great book called Is God Calling Me? Tell us a little bit about how that book came about.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: I first was asked to teach on the subject of God's call in a formal way back in the mid-1990s at a doctor of Ministry seminar for Gateway Seminary. I developed the material. I went to the seminary, I taught it, and it was very bad.
The students ate me a lot.
And so I realized that while I had a few good ideas, I had a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of confusing nomenclature and just generally not a very tightly prepared set of materials. So I went home and thought, well, they'll never ask me to do that again. But they did. And so about 18 months later, I went back and taught it a second time. And this time it was still not great, but it was a lot better.
And I thought after that, well, I'm getting this, but I wonder. And so about 18 months later, I came around in the rotation again, and they asked me to teach it. And the third time I taught was very clear that I was finally to the place where the material was making sense. And in fact, some really powerful things happened in that seminar that day. Teaching the material with just the insight that students gained from it. So I kept working with it and teaching it in various contexts. I was back in those days doing a lot of speaking on college campuses in different locations for Collegiate Ministries. And so I taught the material, and it kept getting clearer and better and more helpful. And then in about 2004, 2005, I was asked to speak at Collegiate Week at Glorietta Conference Center. And they asked me to speak for an hour for four mornings on God's Call. And I thought, well, I'm ready. Finally, after this, I've done this, like, almost 10 years of this. I've got it.
I taught the material. The first morning when I finished, about 20 or 30 college ministry leaders lined up to talk to me, and they all had the same question, where can I get this material?
And so at lunch that day, a man came over and introduced himself to me and said, I'm here with organization that works with and is promoting, call and works with all these college students. And have you ever considered writing the material? Because if you will write it, we'd like to use it as a textbook, or we'd like to use it as a promotional material. And I said, yeah, I think I could do that. And I actually wrote the book in six weeks, but I'd been working on it at that Point and teaching it for almost a decade.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Few years, yeah.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: So I wrote the book and I wanted to write. My goal was to write a hundred page book that a high school senior could read. That was the goal. And so the book's about 120 pages, but it's definitely written in a vocabulary for a high school senior to read. It's not a seminary type textbook, although a lot of seminaries and colleges use it to my great delight. But it was really written to try to say to a high school student, here's the concepts of God's call in a clear and succinct form with really polished terminology, eliminating a lot of the God talk and a lot of the confusion that goes around this issue. So that's how the book came about. And it's been my, I've written seven or eight books. It's by far my best selling book, my most popular book. It's my shortest book and the ones that have been around the longest. So it's really been fun to watch how God has used it.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. The subtitle of that book is Answering the Question Every Leader Asks. So obviously you had the ability to perceive that this is a question that a lot of people are asking. Is God calling me? If you could summarize, kind of maybe the heart behind your book before we begin to unpack it, if, if you're able to give what's on the back, what is this thing really about? How would you summarize that?
[00:06:02] Speaker C: It's about answering the specific question, is God calling me to ministry leadership? To something beyond a life of service and devotion as a Christian? And it's the question that I've watched many young adults grapple with, especially those who are serious about their faith. They want to know what, what does God want from me and how does he want to use me? And does that include stepping forward and committing my life to ministry leadership?
That's really the core of the book and what it's about. And partly I watched my own three children go through this and two of my children answered the question no, that God was not calling them to ministry leadership. And they've gone on both of them, to productive lives as very committed Christians, very active leaders in their churches and other contexts. My daughter, on the other hand, did say yes and wound up marrying a pastor and moving forward in ministry leadership with him together. So I've watched in my family how the struggle is real and the question is legitimate. And it's really one that people want to get right, especially if they're serious about their relationship with the Lord.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'm glad you said that, because I think a lot of people, when they hear that question, is God calling me? If the only positive answer to that question in their minds is yes, if the answer is no, that must mean either something's wrong with them or they have a lesser calling. But as you just kind of explained, either way, it's very helpful for people to be able to discern.
[00:07:34] Speaker C: Well, one of the confusing things that I talk about in the book is that some people say, well, all Christians are called, and in one sense they are. And I talk in the book about that. But there's no question but that there is a subsequent experience that happens for a few believers where they have a call to ministry leadership. Not just a call to Christian service and growth, which we all share, but a call to take the lead in directing the rest of the believers forward to get ministry done together.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: And maybe. Can you define that term? You've used the phrase ministry leadership a few times, which is very important in kind of the scope of your book. A lot of people use the term maybe vocational ministry or terms similar to that. What do you mean specifically when you're talking about ministry leadership?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: The defining issue in answering God's call is that it is a call to leadership. It's not a call necessarily to vocation. In fact, that's quite frankly, a very Western perspective. Most people in our world who respond to God's call to ministry leadership don't get a vocational salary. They have no benefits. There's no retirement program.
It's nothing like the professional clergy class that we've invented in Western culture. And so it's not a matter of is God calling you to a job or a title or a salary or a position?
Is he calling you to give leadership? In other words, is he calling you to be the one to step forward and say to the rest of the believers, let's go this direction, and I'll help organize you, I'll help train you, I'll help motivate you, I'll help encourage you, but I will lead you to move together, to work together, to accomplish something. And I can illustrate it very simply. If you have a church that has 100 people attending, it typically has one person who's answered God's call to ministry leadership who probably serves as the pastor. What about the other 99? Well, they are definitely called to Christian service and growth, but they don't share that same calling that that pastor has to lead and guide and direct the rest of them to accomplish God's purpose. So I make this distinction in the book and I talk about also in the book that there are some soft edges to these definitions. It's not all that rigid, but it is very defined. Even though it's not rigid.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: That's good. So that's one of the things I was wanting to kind of bring up and talk about for just a few minutes on the podcast is one of the things that you do in the book early on is give a call to ministry. I want to come back to that. But since we're kind of on this different way God calls people, one of the things I think that's really helpful is you kind of have these three levels that God calls people. The first one you've already kind of leaned into a little bit. God calls everybody. There's this universal call to service and growth a little bit.
[00:10:11] Speaker C: Right. The word call. In the New Testament, there are passages of scripture where that word is used that address all believers. And they really fall into two categories. Some of the passages call all believers to Christian service, and some call all believers to Christian growth, or what sometimes is called sanctification. But it's Christian service and Christian growth, and all believers are called to both of those responsibilities.
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Good. Would discipleship be another way to phrase that?
[00:10:41] Speaker C: Discipleship is the process by which people are led into understanding how to serve. And. And so it's the word I would use to describe the process of teaching people how to fulfill that universal call, as I say, that goes out to all believers to grow and to develop in terms of their character. Darre.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Alright, great. So the first call all believers have, universal call to service and growth. Second one is something you alluded to a while ago, this call to ministry, leadership.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: Right? And that's the one that comes to people. You see it in the New Testament, for example. A good example is Peter.
Early on, his brother Andrew led him to faith in Jesus. And from that moment forward in the Gospels, he's serving and growing. He's serving Jesus and growing in his understanding of his relationship with him. But in Luke chapter five, they have that famous incident where they catch all those fish. Now that's instructive because Peter had not abandoned his profession of commercial fishing or in his early months of following Jesus. But after that moment when Jesus said, now I want you to follow me and we're just going to fish for people. Now what he was saying is, Peter, it's time for you to move away from this vocation, this occupation, this lifestyle, and do something different. And that is I want you to take leadership in my kingdom. And from that moment until that little fish fry at the end of John when Jesus has appeared after his resurrection, Peter doesn't fish anymore in the New Testament. The rest of the story is about him in leadership. And so he's a good example of the difference between a universal call to Christian service and growth. But maintaining your life as a fisherman, to stepping out of that and saying, no, my life now is about ministry leadership and devoting myself entirely to that. And this raises lots of questions about bivocational and co vocational ministry. And those are all legitimate. But even in those contexts, the person's doing it would tell you their priority is that ministry leadership call and that the work they're doing is now only facilitating that it's really not the focus or the end of their lives.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. And that leads to that third one, which you've already kind of hinted at. You go from that second kind of that general call to ministry leadership to a specific ministry assignment where God gives some revelation to them. Direction.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: Yes. When you answer God's call to ministry leadership, one of the confirming things that God will do in your life is give you one or more specific assignments where you have a sense of calling to do a certain thing or even be in a certain location or place. Now this was confusing for me because when I committed my life to ministry leadership, I did not use that terminology. I committed my life to being a pastor.
Well, that became a trauma for me because at one point God clearly was directing me to become the executive director of the Northwest Baptist Convention.
That was a hard struggle for me because I thought, wait, no, I'm not called to do this kind of work. I'm called to be a pastor. But now I recognize that God was really wanting me to commit my life to leadership. And then he would give me assignments along the way. And I've had two or three of those in my lifetime. I still think they're a part of God's call. They're not just a job you get, they're more an assignment you receive. And I do think that they are a sense that you have them as with a sense that God has placed you in a certain role or responsibility.
And so for that reason, I see these three different expressions of calling in the New Testament. A universal call to Christian service and growth for all believers.
A call to ministry leadership that comes to a few believers, and then the confirmation of that is often seen in how God places us or gives us a specific call to a ministry assignment. That may change over our lifetimes and frankly, for most people, does.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Along with that opportunity, you know, sometimes the opportunity can confirm a calling. If someone's asking the question, am I called? What are some other, like, confirming elements that you say these are the things you should be looking for to see that this calling isn't maybe just something that you fabricated or come up with on your own, but that that is shown through other things.
[00:14:46] Speaker C: Well, in the book, I actually talk about five categories or five things that help us with this. Let me talk about a few of them here. The first one, believe it or not, is inner peace. You just have a deeply settled sense. This is what God is saying to me. In fact, sometimes, as I said, I've taught this at the doctoral level and it sometimes blows doctoral students minds when I say the first thing that will confirm your call is you'll know it in your heart. Doctoral students all want footnotes and facts, and I certainly affirm that as a former seminary president. But there is something about God's call that is deeply personal. And you simply know in your heart this is what God wants from you. That's one thing. Another one, though, is the confirmation of others. When I announced as a 17 year old that God was calling me to ministry leadership, the response that I received was really quite surprising to me. My mother wasn't a Christian at that time. When I told her that I thought God was calling me to ministry leadership, she smiled and said, I see that in you.
I was shocked that she would be so supportive in that moment. When I told my pastor and some other church leaders, their response was very routine, I will say they didn't seem all that shocked. They were like, oh, okay, yeah, that's good. We've been wondering when you would come to that kind of. That sort of attitude. It was like, everyone can see it but me, you know? And so when there's confirmation from others, that's another good indication. Another good indication that God is calling you is that you both receive a tremendous amount of satisfaction from and frankly have some success in ministry leadership. When I teach this for college students, though, I say, look, don't compare this, however, to your pastor who's been doing this for 30 years.
It's satisfaction and success among your peers. So, for example, I would say if your church had a youth Sunday and everyone automatically asks you to be the speaker or lead the prayers or lead the music, what does that tell you? It tells you people are seeing you already in a ministry leadership capacity. If you're in college and you're the person that when they say, we're going to organize dorm Bible studies in every dorm, we need someone to put that together. And they all turn and look at you. It's like, why is everyone looking at me? Well, because we know you can organize well and we know you know about ministry. We want you to put this together for us. I could go on and on with these illustrations, but the idea is when you have others confirming in you something that you also get great joy from doing, then you know, perhaps God is calling you. So these are some of the ways. There's others in the book besides those.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Cool. So one of the things that was very helpful for me in the book is I think there are terms that we know, but sometimes we have a hard time defining. Like there's a commercial, I've seen the last week OR2 on TV where there's a group of adults and there's a kid, and that one of the adults comes in and says something about the economy. And the kids, like, what's the economy? And they are all stumbling trying to find an answer for a word that they know but have a hard time defining. I think call to ministry can be a like that. And you have a really, I think, helpful definition for call to ministry in your book that has three different parameters. Basically, you say call to ministry is a profound impression from God that establishes parameters for your life that can only be changed or superseded by another act or calling from God. Talk about each one of those elements, if you would, because I think that's just a really helpful call to ministry, definition and guidance.
[00:18:28] Speaker C: I worked hard on that definition. One of the things that surprised me when I was working on this material in the beginning was I read other books about call and no one would ever define it in one sentence and then stay with that definition for their whole book. So I thought, there's got to be a way to pin this down.
So my definition is it starts, as you said, it's a profound impression from God. This is something that you know, that you sense inside yourself. You believe it's happening to you. It's a profound impression. It's more than a leading or a prompting or a directing. It's something that's deep down in your soul and you sense it.
Then second, it establishes parameters for your life. And those parameters are like guardrails that it puts up around your life. And when you respond to God's call, there's some things that are inside the parameters and some things that are outside the parameters. And some things that are outside your parameters are just fine for other Christians, but for leaders, they're not.
And they're not all moral or sinful choices. Like, for example, there was a time when I was a seminary president, when I was offered a ministry opportunity. And I said that I could say yes to, that I couldn't have said yes to if I were still a pastor, because the schedule was not going to work into a pastor's schedule. So it's like the parameters for your life establishment. The guidelines of here's how I'm going to live going forward because of this, and then the last one can only be altered by a subsequent superseding impression from God. Meaning when you're called, you stay called. You don't just careen through life claiming everything is a calling. No, when you're called, you stay until you're satisfied that you have fulfilled all that you were responsible to accomplish in that moment and that God has done all through and in you that he wanted to do through those circumstances before you're free to go. And so those are the three things that really are distinctive about my definition. And while my definition probably can be improved, the one thing I try to do is stay consistent with it throughout the book so that people know that's what we mean by call. And we use that word in so many different ways that it's important to narrow down a definition and try to stick with it.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. And one of the things I like is it gives those three kind of guidelines that are super helpful. But as you said, it goes throughout the book, especially something you mentioned a while ago when you get to that third thing about a specific call to ministry leadership. I think that's really helpful because you're right. So many times we hear people say I'm called to student ministry or worship ministry, or I'm called to this. And when God changes that on them for some people, like you said, that kind of becomes almost an identity crisis. I really appreciate in the book the way you're like, big picture call to ministry. But realize that could change. That specific ministry assignment could change for you. And how that plays honestly into the definition of you're there. It establishes those boundaries until you get that subsequent superseding call from God.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: I think I got this book whenever I was at some point in college, probably later college, from, I think maybe Warren. A lot of our listeners know Warren Gasaway. Or maybe it was from you through Super Summer. And I remember that was super helpful for myself, even for my wife. I mean, feeling called to ministry at a young age, I automatically thought, well, it's got to be student ministry. And she was a young lady in a complementarian context, and so she must be called to missions. And so at first it seemed like we had these combating calls, but then all of a sudden, when we think, oh, what we're called to is ministry leadership that can express itself in a lot of different ways and actually could be something that works together rather than being forced to be a part. That was really helpful to see. Here's all the different ways that God can call you. But then as the Lord begins to stir your heart to certain areas, that's where, as you said a minute ago, oh, you can start weeding out what maybe that might be at any given moment. I would be curious for you. And you've alluded to this some. Obviously, you have felt kind of that changing calling at different points in your life, whether it was going from being a pastor to convention work, convention work to seminary work, and then seminary work. You think retirement, you alluded to this at the beginning. You think retirement is coming, and then all of a sudden God convinces you, hey, this is the calling. Now, we've explained and talked a lot about the principles of the call to ministry leadership. Can you maybe walk through, hey, this is how this actually took place in my own life at one of these given stages.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: Well, let's just take this last transition that I went through.
About a year and a half ago.
My wife and I, through a number of different circumstances, concluded that it was time for us to step away from Gateway Seminary, that God had called us there, but he had accomplished through us everything that he wanted to do, both through us and in us. And it was time for a transition to take place. And I had worked hard over several years to set up the transition so that it was the right time, it could be done in the right way, and we implemented that. It went beautifully, and the seminary is thriving today, and I'm really grateful for that.
I was stepping away from organizational leadership, and I thought I was stepping away to continue to do many of the things I was already doing, mentoring young leaders, writing, teaching, speaking. But I was really stepping away from organizational leadership, and that's really what retirement was going to be like for me. I wasn't retiring from life. I wasn't quitting ministry. I was stepping into a new definition of what it would be like going forward.
And then really, out of the blue, the person that was going to be nominated to be the president of the executive committee decided to withdraw from the process, that God was not calling him to do that. And on January 23rd of 2024, I received a phone call from a prominent Southern Baptist leader saying, I know you have plans to do something else, but I'm calling to appeal to you to step forward and be considered for this position.
And looking back on it, while that put me into weeks of turmoil, frankly, looking back on it, I know that in that first phone call, I felt that profound impression from God that I've talked about. I felt the weight of the responsibility for this position fall on me. Then. This may surprise you and it may be even humorous. But then I went and read my own book.
I thought, I've got to sort this out and I need help. So I reread my own book and marked up a few key points. And one of the things that you've already asked about was discerning. Is this really God calling? And so I went to several key leaders that I trusted and respected and said, this has been proposed to me. I wonder what. What your thoughts are about it and complete unity. Yes, you should do this. Then I went to my children, three adult children, all three committed Christians.
All three. I respect their judgment and their passion and their commitment. I laid it out for them. And they all three said the same thing in different ways. Dad, you've got to do this.
So I had a profound impression from God. I was seeking and receiving confirmation from others who were encouraging me to do this. And then I said, lord, one of the great things about being a Baptist is you can't do anything in ministry leadership unless someone asks you. We don't have a hierarchy that sends out the pastors and assigns them to the places. So I said, lord, if they call me to do this, and the church, in essence expressing itself through the board of the executive committee, if they ask me to do this, Lord, I believe that's you, and I'll say yes. And then they voted unanimously for me to do it. So I said yes.
So every one of these processes is unique, but there are some things that are similar. You want to look for that profound impression from God, that sense of inner peace and conviction. You want to look for some confirmation from people that you trust and respect and mean. It has to be unanimous. But you want to listen for that wisely. And then you want to look to the people who are the actual decision makers and trust that if God is really leading you to do something, that he'll motivate them to ask you to do it. And then you'll be able to make a good decision.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really helpful. I appreciate you sharing the kind of the backstory on how this has kind of played out in your own life. We have a lot of young leaders listening to this podcast. If any of them were to be wrestling with this call as they're waiting on God's answer, what are the things that you would call them to start doing right now so that they can be ready if God says yes or even if God says no?
[00:27:05] Speaker C: Well, first of all, you should be vigorously engaged in Christian service and in Christian growth. You should be focusing your life on how can I serve and how can I grow right now.
If you're wondering am I called? God is very able to make that clear in your life. But don't sit around waiting for anything. Get moving, start serving, keep growing and see how God will then capitalize on that to give you a clear sense of calling. And then I would also say if that sense of calling is coming, while every one of us goes through a serious time of reflection and concern and checking and rechecking to make sure we're doing the right thing, I would also say don't be afraid to say yes. Don't be afraid to say yes. Because in saying yes, you're saying yes to what I believe is the greatest opportunity that you'll ever have, and that is to be obedient and to follow God in doing what he wants you to do. Don't be hesitant to say yes.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: That's good. Well, if you are a student, whether high school or college here in the state of Arkansas, we want to let you know that we have a way to help you come alongside you and your local church in your call to ministry. We began launching in the fall and we'll continue this spring with a series of five roundtables called Explore youe Call. This is specifically for any students who feel called to ministry. They know they're called to ministry or they're just beginning to wrestle with that. So you can go to the Arkansas Baptist State Convention website and go to Explore youe Call. And you can see there where we have those roundtables coming up all throughout the state in January, February and March and 1st of April. These are free of charge to you. You can come, you can bring a student pastor or pastor or someone with you, a parent with you if you want to. It's going to be a two hour opportunity where we're going to talk about call to ministry. We're going to talk about Dr. Orange's book kind of Take you through an overview of it. We'll have a panel that's going to be a part of that. We'll provide a free dinner for you and we're also going to have specific tables where we'll have people who have been called to specific ministry assignments that you can visit with as you talk about call to ministry. And we're going to provide you a free copy of Dr. Orge's book as well. So again, check out the Explore youe Call website. We would love to have you be a part of that. Doesn't cost anything at and even if you can't make the one in your region, for example, we have one coming up soon in Jonesboro. If you're in the Jonesboro area and can't make that one, we got four others that you are welcome to join in any part of the state. So we would love to have you be a part of that. Again, go to the absc.org website and check on Explore your call.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: That was a great sales pitch.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: Thanks man.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: I would love to come. I'm just in it for the what are we having for dinner?
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Well, I do every, every area has a specific place, but we have been super intentional to call the host church in the area or the BCM building and ask them for their primary recommendation based on the budget we have in place to provide a meal for them. Yes.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: So earlier we started our conversation with the pre show convo on barbecue. So maybe some barbecue.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yes, I think one of the places is have a barbecue actually, which I think maybe you're a fan of.
[00:30:03] Speaker C: I would be a fan.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: That's what I hear. Well, I know you're a busy man. I don't know if the one we have barbecue at you'd be welcome to be at. My guess is your schedule's probably full, but you would be welcome to be there. But thanks for listening to the Lead Defend podcast again. Appreciate Dr. Orange taking the time to be a part of this check out that explore your call stuff. And if you can't make explore your call but you're interested, check out Dr. Orange's book. You can buy one online. Or if you want to contact us at the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, I would be happy to provide you with a free copy of that. All right, well thanks for joining us again today. Hope this has been helpful and we'll see you on the next podcast. And don't forget Lead Defend. It's always in work. Yeah, we got 2025 lined out. Working on 2026. Now go to leaddefend.org and you can always find out more information about that. Brock's thank you for being here today, man.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. We'll see you guys next time.
