Lee Strobel on "Seeing The Supernatural"

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to the Lead Defend Podcast, a show designed to help you grow in faith and leadership as you navigate the. [00:00:17] Speaker A: Stages of young adulthood. [00:00:19] Speaker B: We address important faith topics and provide practical life tips, helping you build up your faith as you engage a changing culture. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Now, here are your hosts. [00:00:29] Speaker B: Welcome to the Lead Defend Podcast. [00:00:31] Speaker C: I am Bill, and it's Brock. [00:00:33] Speaker B: And we are glad to be back with you. We have a special guest with us today, and as it so happens, we don't usually get a lot of repeat guests close together, but we are blessed to have Lee Strobel with us once again. Lee, glad to have you back, man. [00:00:46] Speaker A: I'm glad to be here. Always great to come to Arkansas. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Well, we are glad to have you. Lee was just here at the Econ conference just about six weeks ago. If you didn't get a chance to listen to that podcast would encourage you to do that. Today we're going to talk about apologetics and his new book. But in the previous podcast, we. We talked about evangelism because at your heart, you're known as an apologist, but you're really an evangelist. [00:01:08] Speaker A: I'm an evangelist who uses apologetics. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:11] Speaker C: Well, at our church, we're gearing up to Easter. I've encouraged our entire congregation, one person for one minute at 1:00 every day, just like you mentioned us, to pray for one person that they can invite to Easter. [00:01:23] Speaker A: That's true. [00:01:23] Speaker C: So I appreciated that little tidbit, and I mentioned it in one of our bigger staff meetings with our other senior pastor, and he looked at me and then looked at someone else and says, you need to write that down. So thank you for that. [00:01:35] Speaker A: That's awesome. I'm so glad you're doing that. We've had tremendous results when we've done that church that I've been involved in, and I wrote a little book called the Case for Easter, and it's very inexpensive. And so about this time of year, I always order 10 of them and I just give them away in a restaurant and to the server. Nice tip. And a copy of the book. [00:01:53] Speaker C: Wonder if they ever look at the book and then look at your credit card and they're like, wait, this is the guy? [00:01:57] Speaker A: Probably not. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. So if you didn't hear that podcast, go back and listen, because it is an evangelistic. Lee talks about six styles of evangelism. Really? Kind of seven styles. You added a seventh style. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Did I? Oh, good, I got to write that down. [00:02:10] Speaker B: But anyway, that was a great podcast, but we aren't here to Talk about evangelism this time around. We're here to talk about Lee's new book, Seeing the Supernatural, which comes out here in just a couple of weeks. So I've been curious, is this what you're going to talk about at Lead Defend? Because we are getting ready to have Lead Defend here in just a few hours. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm actually not. They wanted me to talk on a couple other topics, so that's what I'm going to do. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Well, good. That's why we're talking about it on the podcast. All right, so let me just say you were kind enough to get us some advanced copies so we could sell them at Lead Defend. So I was able to snatch one last week and spend the last week or so reading the book. So before we get into the content of the book, I have one question. One of the things that I was curious about. This is just a big picture question. This is formatted very similar to your case of books, but you didn't call this case for the supernatural, which is honestly what I called it up until about two weeks ago. And I was like, oh, I've been using the wrong name. So. But so seeing the supernatural. So me as just kind of a book nerd, I was kind of curious. Was there a specific reason why it's not case for the supernatural, it's seeing the supernatural. [00:03:19] Speaker A: I didn't think of that. No, I'm kidding. [00:03:23] Speaker C: Bill, would you like a job in marketing? [00:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that would have been a logical thing to do, I think, you know, I'm a little sensitive that I don't want. I've done so many books with the case motif that I don't want that to get overused. So we decided something else. Plus, there's that great story in 2 Kings, chapter 6, where Elisha is being stalked by the Syrian army and his servants all afraid because they're going to get killed. And the Syrian army surrounds them and the servants upset. And Elisha says to him, hey, I'm paraphrasing. Chill out. It's okay. There's more of us than it is of them. And then he still was upset and nervous. So Elisha prayed and asked God to open his eyes. It's a great spirit. And he opened his eyes to see the supernatural. [00:04:13] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:04:13] Speaker A: And he saw the angels there to protect them. And so I like that image of seeing the supernatural. [00:04:20] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's almost like the case books are more about. Let's make an argument for why this is true. And so it's not just that you want to it sounds like it's not just that you want people to know that the supernatural exists, but you want to help them to actually experience it. Just like in that story. It's not just, hey, let me tell you why you can know that the supernatural is around us while the angels around us, it's. No, I want you to actually see them so that you can experience it. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very true. I mean, 80% of American adults believe in the supernatural. So I didn't have to convince them the supernatural exists. I didn't have to make a case for it, but I had to make a case for the biblical perspective of the supernatural because there's a lot of junk out there. That's right. You get into things, ghosts and psychics and all kinds of things that really have no biblical basis. And so I'm hoping that this will clarify for people what is the supernatural realm? There is something beyond what we can see and touch. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Cool. So what led you, because you've written a lot of books on a lot of different topics, what led you to choose this particular topic for a book? [00:05:21] Speaker A: I think these days, you know, we're getting past, in our culture and globally, we're getting a little bit past the new atheism that kind of had its day and it's kind of fizzled out in most ways. And so people are experimenting with spirituality and unfortunately they're getting into all kinds of permutations of it that are not biblical. But it gives us an on ramp. It gives us a common ground to talk about. And when I found out that 8 out of 10Americans believe in the supernatural, I thought, well, there's a good starting point to get into a conversation. What is the supernatural realm really? Like, how do we know what is the evidence and so forth? What does the Bible say about it? So I'm hoping it could be a ramp to non believers who were spiritually interested, but not quite there yet in terms of relationship with God. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Good. That's good. So in the book, is there any one particular topic that was most that you feel like you learned the most about? Going into this? [00:06:24] Speaker A: I am fascinated by the chapter on deathbed visions. You know, we see in the Book of Acts, I think it's chapter seven where Stephen is going to be stoned to death. And he looks up and he sees heaven opening up. He sees what's to come. And what I found out is that the number of people who are dying who have a vision of what's to come is astronomically high. Tens of thousands of cases have been studied. There's a huge hospice facility in New York state and a lot of people who have a deathbed vision like this are afraid to talk about it because I think people will believe that they're crazy. Crazy. Yeah, yeah. Dementia. Said it. So they went to these people at this large hospice and said, hey, if you have a vision, not just a typical dream, but something that's beyond that. If you have that, tell us, we would like to know. 88% of them had a pre death vision. And my theory is the other 12% probably had one too, but they died before they told them. [00:07:24] Speaker C: Or just kept it to themselves. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Or kept it to themselves. Yeah. So this is incredibly common. And what's interesting is a couple of things, corroboration of them. Number one, the frequency is a bit of corroboration because if it were just once in a blue moon, something like this happened. The atheist would say, oh yeah, you got a billion people who die a year or whatever. Certainly there are going to be a couple of anomalies, you know, so they would dismiss it. But the commonality of it is something that I think argues in favor of their legitimacy. 3000 cases were studied by researchers and they found these are not hallucinations, it's not dementia, it's not subconscious mind conjuring up things from their past and so forth. These are different. These are actual visions. And then we see cases where people see things that they shouldn't know. So for instance, a woman named Dora, she's dying. She's in England, had two doctors with her, One of them a very, very prominent scholar actually, in England. And she's dying, and she sees angelic beings, and she sees her father in heaven who had died several years earlier, kind of welcoming her to heaven. And then she gets a puzzled look on her face. And she said, vita's with him. What's Vita doing? And she couldn't understand, why is Vita with them? And then she died. And it turns out Vita was her sister. She died three weeks earlier, but nobody had told her because they were afraid it would push her over to dying herself, so kept it from her. And yet she saw Vita in this world to come. Interestingly, when I'm doing this research, I'm telling my wife what I'm finding. And she says, lee, don't you know the stories of my parents? They both had deathbed visions. [00:09:14] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:09:15] Speaker A: She went into the hospice facility to see her father, and her father's all agitated. And he said, where's Marge? Where's Marge? And she said, what do you mean, where's Marge? Marge was here. I was talking to Marge. What happened? Where's Marge? Marge is his sister and she had died about 10 days earlier, but nobody had told Al yet because they didn't want to push him over to dying himself. And her mother saw. And they were both Christians, her mother, who saw people looking down her as if she was a baby in a crib and anticipating her passage into the world to come. Interestingly too, in Luke 16:22, Jesus telling the story about the rich man and the beggar who both died. And the rich man is in torment and the beggar is in bliss. And he says the angels carried Lazarus the beggar to the place of bliss. And often we see people who encounter angels who are coming for that's their deathbed vision. Billy Graham's mother in law saw angels coming for her. Charles Templeton, Billy Graham's best friend and pulpit partner, became an atheist, an agnostic, who later, most people don't know this. Came to faith at the end of his life. [00:10:31] Speaker B: I did not know that until I. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Read that in the book. Yeah, I think that's the first time we've disclosed that. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:10:36] Speaker A: And so he either came to faith or returned to faith before he died. And he's on his deathbed and he says to his wife, Madeline, don't you see them? What do you mean? They're here in the room. You can't see the angels. Look at their eyes. Their eyes are so beautiful. I'm coming. I'm going to heaven. I'm going to be with God. So this is very common. And what's especially interesting is children who are dying, because you think if a child were gonna refer to a cultural norm about angels, if they're just conjuring this up from their subconscious, it would probably be a cartoon of an angel. Right? Because they're a little kid. All cartoons of angels have big wings. But no, that's not what angels. The Bible doesn't say they all have wings, number one and number two. That's not what dying children see. So there was one case from a doctoral dissertation where a little girl is dying and she says, mommy, Mommy, can you see them? The angels are here. They're so beautiful. They're singing. It's so beautiful. And the mother lies and says, oh, yeah, yeah, I see them. Look at their big wings. And her daughter said, oh, mommy, you don't have to lie. They don't have wings. And then she went on to describe in vivid detail what the angels look like. So that's consistent with what Jesus was talking about in that passage. So there's those kind of corroborative details that I think are very, very, very interesting. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Well, talking about the numbers, one of the things you brought up in the book that I had not thought about was even if a vast majority of those are faked are because of people having mental illness, dementia, something along those lines. But even when you look at the vast numbers that are there, even if a small percentage of them are true, I mean, those are hundreds of thousands, if not millions. And I was like, statistically, that's really interesting even to look at. Even if it's just a small percentage based on how many there are. [00:12:16] Speaker A: You know what I would encourage people to do? Next time you have a family gathering, bring up this topic and see if any family members have stories. I bet you they do. I had a friend who did a podcast and they talked about deathbed visions. And it's a podcast that reaches a lot of skeptics and atheists and so forth. So I went to the YouTube setting for the interview, expecting in the comments to see all these people say, oh no, I don't believe that. That's not true. You know what all of the. Oh yeah, we had this in our life. Oh yeah, we had this story after story after story of people. And what I like about that, these are people you trust. Yeah, I trust my wife, you know, when she went in and her dad said this to her. My wife has credibility with me. I believe her. I believe it's true. And so often when we get a story like that from a family member, it gives it extra credibility. [00:13:05] Speaker B: That's good. So one of the things I had never really thought about, but you talk about the difference between deathbed visions and near death experiences. Talk for just a minute about the difference between those two things because I just always kind of thought about those two things as the same. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah, people conflate them a lot because they are similar. But in a near death experience, a person is clinically dead, so that means no brainwaves, generally no heartbeat. But the difference is they're going to come back now. They're going to be revived at some point so they're not permanently dead. What's interesting about that is many of them will meet. They'll call out to Jesus and Jesus will meet them. And I have stories of atheists who've come not just come to faith in a near death experience, but they renounce their atheism and become pastors because of the power of the experience. But you Think, well, the Bible says in Hebrews we're appointed once to die and then the judgment. So why are people coming to faith after that? No, they're not permanently dead, they're coming back. As opposed to a deathbed vision, which is just before someone dies. And they ain't coming back to this world, they're going on to the next. And we do have cases of terrifying deathbed visions. I think about 14% are reported. And a lot of people, I'm guessing, don't talk about those. About 24% of the near death experiences are terrifying, which you would expect. Not everybody is going on to a pleasant afterlife, but that's the difference. And they're both fascinating. And what's also interesting is there are 47 points of correspondence between both deathbed visions and near death experiences and Christianity, the Bible's teachings. So these are consistent with scripture. John Burke, my good friend who studied a thousand near death experiences and wrote a book about it called Imagine Heaven, verse by verse, points out how if you strip away not what people, how they interpret the near death experience, but what actually happens because people see them through their worldview, strip that away. What actually takes place in a near death experience. There's common things that happen those are consistent with the Bible, which was a breakthrough finding. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Really cool. So why do you think for, I mean, as Christians we are spiritual people, but at least in my experience growing up in church and even nowadays interacting with people, we don't focus a lot, I think on spirituality as far as like spiritual warfare type stuff. Why do you think that is? [00:15:41] Speaker A: It's a great question. I had a scholar tell me once, I can drive past the church and look at the parking lot and based on the parking lot I can tell you what they believe about the supernatural. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Yeah. What he means by that is you see a lot of Mercedes Benzes and BMWs and a sophisticated crowd, highly educated. They're probably not talking about angels and demons and spiritual warfare. You go by and you see some beat up old Chevys and you go, yeah, they're the. But I had one scholar who was at a major university, he's a theologian and he was telling me how he grew up in a Pentecostal home, a charismatic home, where there was an expectation of the supernatural, where they kind of expected it to happen. And he said, I remember when I was a child in our church, there was a family and they were driving in their car 70 miles an hour before seat belts and their 10 year old son opened the back door of the car and fell Out. Well, I think our son's been killed. Oh my gosh. They turn around, they go back and here's their son standing there in the middle of the street. And they said, what happened? He said, oh, didn't you see the man who caught me? And this theologian reached in his pocket and picked out a handkerchief and dabbed his eyes and he said, I miss that. I miss growing up in a culture, a church culture, where there was an expectation of the supernatural. And yes, some churches will take it to an extreme, but I think we impoverish ourselves when we don't acknowledge the existence of a supernatural realm and how we interface with it. You know, it's interesting in Revelation, I think it's chapter five, we see the post resurrected Jesus on his throne and there are a hundred million angels, the Bible says, worshiping him. A hundred. There's a lot of angels out there, a lot of demons out there, and they're very real. And I think we do impoverish ourselves if we don't pay attention to that. A friend of mine just wrote a new book called you, Story has a Villain and it's about spiritual warfare and excellent book to really get up to speed on. What does that really mean? How do we prepare ourselves? Should we pray for angelic protection? Should we pray to angels? No, we shouldn't pray to angels, but we can and probably should pray to God to send angels to protect us. You know, when Jesus was being arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said, could I not call out to my father and have him send the equivalent of 60,000 angels right now to protect me? I could. I'm not gonna. But he could. Martin Luther in his evening devotionals has a line that says, God, send your angels to protect me from the evil one. So it is an important realm for us to be aware of and there is a battle going on and we need to not only be aware of, but to be protected against now, you know, greater is he who is in us than he is in the world, but nevertheless, be aware. Be aware. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's so interesting you talk about expectation because I was in a conversation recently, we have a guy on staff with us that was a missionary through the International mission board for 27 years, primarily in South Asia. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:04] Speaker C: And one of the things he talked about over there was whenever they were like telling stories back, it was like, you want to share the cool stories, but you don't also, you don't want to share sometimes the stories that are going to make people think that you've lost your mind. And I think it's fair. I think of other mission trips that we've been on and that expectation of not just denominationally within the United States, but even you go to different parts of the world, and it's just more evident and real to them in their everyday lives. [00:19:32] Speaker A: You know, it's funny you say that, because I had an experience with an angel when I was a youngster, when I was 10 or 12 years old, and I wouldn't talk about it. After I became a Christian, I wouldn't talk about it. The one time I brought it up, I was my ordination. And here I've got these theologians questioning me. I was ordained in an interdenominational church, and they're making sure I'm orthodox and everything. And I thought, do I bring this up, that I had a visitation from an angel? And I thought maybe I should. So I did. I told them about it because I didn't know how they'd respond. The response was, yeah, okay, they weren't surprised, but I was hesitant to bring it up. But when you do see in the. And I talk about this in my chapter on miracles in the book, you do see that miracles are not evenly distributed around planet Earth. They tend to cluster in places like the Far east and so forth, where the church, the gospel, is just breaking in. So in China, it's been estimated that up to 90% of the growth of the Church of China is because people themselves or they know someone who's had a supernatural healing. Brazil, Mozambique, these are places where the gospel is breaking in. And often these cultures are not literate cultures. So you give them a Bible, they're not going to read it. But they do respond to the supernatural. And so I think God often will bring miraculous healings into those settings to point people toward him. There's a famous case in the New Hebrides Islands in the South Pacific where a guy named John G. Paton, P a T O N, who was a Scottish missionary, was sent to share the gospel. And he and his wife lived in this little cottage. And the local people didn't like the fact that they were sharing Jesus. And so the local tribe got up a mob to kill them and burn down their house. So one night this mob shows up and. And Payton and his wife are in their house, and what can we do? All we can do is pray. So they're praying, God protect us, God save us. And they prayed all night. And the mob dissipated. A year later, the leader of that mob became a Christian through his ministry and he's talking to him one day, he said, by the way, why didn't you kill us that night you came to burn down our house and kill us? Why didn't you do it? And he said, well, who were all those men that you had guarding your house? And he said, what do you mean, my wife and I? No, we saw hundreds of these men in shining white garments and had drawn swords and they were surrounding your house. And it was an angelic army who God had sent to protect them. Billy Graham tells that story. So, you know, there's some amazing things that go on, and I think sometimes we just need to open our eyes a little wider to God's activity in our world. You know, in terms of miracles. There have been a spate of miracles reported in peer reviewed scientific medical journals in recent years, case studies that have been thoroughly researched, and there is no explanation other than God intervened. Baptist pastor was one of them. His wife was blind. She was blind with an incurable condition for 12 years. She read braille, she went to a school for the blind. She walked with a white cane, married a Baptist pastor. One night they're getting ready for bed. She's in bed, he comes out, he starts crying. And he comes up to her and puts his hand on her shoulder and begins to pray and say, God, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can heal. And I pray, God tonight, I pray that you heal my wife. She opened her eyes with perfect eyesight. [00:23:06] Speaker B: Wow. [00:23:06] Speaker A: And her quote is great. She said, in a sense, she said, I once was blind and now I see. I mean, she said, my husband's praying for me. I opened my eyes, boom, I could see perfectly. And she said it was a miracle. It was a miracle. And her eyes eyesight has remained intact for 47 years after that. Well, that was research by four medical researchers who published it in a peer reviewed medical journal as a case study. The only time I believe that illness has ever been documented to have been cured. And what do you do with that? What do you do with that? [00:23:42] Speaker C: We had a similar experience just a minute ago with Sean Emery. Was in here talking about a speech impediment that he had that kept him. He wasn't able to talk. And then all of a sudden, one day he's able to talk and now his entire ministry is talking, talking. [00:23:58] Speaker A: God is still in the miracle business. [00:24:00] Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, along those same lines, you have a chapter, a couple of chapters after the miracles, where you talk about visions. And so that is not quite the same as the miracles you were talking About. But I love that because it's exactly what we're talking about, about God meeting people, where they are. You specifically talk about Muslims. God meeting Muslims because of what they believe. Talk for a second about that. [00:24:20] Speaker A: God loves Muslims. You know, obviously God loves all people. And here we have closed countries where it's illegal to share the Gospel. What does God do? Throw up his hands, say, forget it. No, he loves these people. And so there's this phenomenon in the Middle east where God, Jesus is appearing in dreams to Muslims. So common is this that in the Cairo newspaper there's an ad often that says, call us and we'll tell you about the man in white you met in your dream last night. That's amazing. This is happening all over. It's estimated that a third to a quarter of all Muslim converts are because they had Jesus dreams. Now, what's interesting about these dreams, and this strikes me as someone trained in journalism and law, the corroborative nature of them. First of all, a devout Muslim has no motive to have a subconscious dream of the Christian Jesus because they could get executed in their culture. [00:25:13] Speaker C: Or a reason to make one up. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Or a reason to make one up, right? So that's number one. But number two, people do not go to sleep, have a Jesus dream, and wake up as a Christian. The dreams point them towards something else. And that's where the corroboration comes in. So I'll give you a quick story about Noor. Noor is a mother, Muslim, mother of eight children, lives in Cairo. She has a Jesus dream blows her away. She encounters Jesus. She feels the love and grace and forgiveness and joy. It's over, overwhelming to her. And she's walking with Jesus along a lakeside, and she says, finally she said, jesus, tell me more about you. And Jesus said, my friend will tell you tomorrow. And she said, who's your friend? And he points to a guy she didn't even realize. She was so mesmerized by Jesus, she didn't realize there was another guy walking with them. And that was the friend Jesus talked about. Next day, she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo and she sees that man from her dreams. And she goes up. So you're the one. Whoa, whoa, what are you talking about? You're the one. Same glasses, same face, same clothes. You're the one. He said, did you have a dream about Jesus last night? She said, yes. He was a missionary, an underground undercover missionary and church planner. And he opened a Bible and shared the Gospel with her. That's corroborative. He didn't want to come to the crowded marketplace in Cairo that day. Nobody does. It's a mess. It's too chaotic. He came because he felt 100% convinced God had an assignment for him that day. And sure enough, and he encountered Noor. And so he opens the Bible and he shares. And that's what I love about these. There's that external corroboration. We had this in our church in Houston, Texas. There was a woman who was. When she was 16 years old, she had a Jesus dream in her close country. And she said it was like a film. She's like she's watching a film of Jesus. And I said, what did he say? That wasn't important. It was who he was. I felt his love and grace, and I didn't know what to do. I was going through a crisis in my life. I'm calling out to God, and this is the God who shows up. And then she ends up getting married to a Muslim guy. Well, the oil industry sends a lot of people from the Middle east to Houston. My whole neighborhood is oil people. So they move to Houston. Then she has another dream. And in this dream, she can't figure it out. She's in a pond of water up to her waist, and there's a man with her with a book. And he's looking at the book and he's weeping. I can't figure. What is this about? Well, one of her neighbors is a member of our church, and she invited her to come to Easter services at our church. And so she did. So her husband was out of town. So she comes. She's sitting on the aisle waiting for the service to begin. And she sees the man from the pond in her dream, and his name is Allen, and he is our pastor of baptism. And Alan comes up, and you're the one. You were in my dream. They lead her to the Lord, and then he takes her into the pond with the Bible open, weeping as he baptizes her in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And just as her dream foretold from a woman who didn't know what baptism was. And so there's a story of Jesus dream right from Houston, Texas. [00:28:25] Speaker B: That's cool. [00:28:26] Speaker A: So I love this because it's an illustration of the love of God. Do we think that closed countries are going to stop God from hearing the message of hope, grace, and love? [00:28:36] Speaker B: Absolutely not. [00:28:36] Speaker A: No. God's going to know. He's going to figure out a way. [00:28:40] Speaker B: So I feel like I need to give a little bit of a disclaimer or a warning because I made a mistake with your book a couple of nights ago. I sat down about 10:30 at night after everybody had gone to bed, and I read the chapter on demons. And that was not the best time to read that particular chapter. Talk for just a minute about. Because we have spent so much time talking about kind of what I call the positive or the light side of things. Talk about the more darker side of things. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I have a great story in the book from Richard Gallagher. Richard Gallagher is a highly educated and respected psychiatrist. So he's a medical doctor, psychiatrist, he's a professor at some major prestigious schools in the Northeast, Yale educated. And I have quotes from the former president of the American association of Psychiatrists saying this is a man of integrity, professionalism, just gold standard psychiatrist. So one day he had two cats, him and his wife. And the cats got along great, they were best friends. But one night the cats went crazy, started attacking each other, snarling at each other, clawing at each other, trying to kill each other, ripping at each other. They could not believe this, the racket they were causing. They were trying to seriously kill each other. They had to rip them apart and put them in separate rooms. It was the most bizarre thing. Next morning, at 9:00 in the morning, the doorbell rings. It was a pre established appointment with a Catholic priest who was bringing over a woman that he wanted the psychiatrist to examine. She claimed to be the high priestess of a satanic culture. And so the priest was bringing her to be examined by the psychiatrist. So he answers the door at nine in the morning and hears this high priestess of a satanic cult. And she looks at him and says, how'd you like those cats last night? [00:30:31] Speaker B: Dang. No, thank you. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah, there is a demonic realm. [00:30:36] Speaker C: I don't even like nice cats, much less demon cats. [00:30:40] Speaker B: I think all cats are. [00:30:41] Speaker C: Why I'm a dog person. [00:30:42] Speaker B: Yes. Amen. [00:30:43] Speaker A: That's why. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Right, that's it. [00:30:45] Speaker A: So you know, yes, there is a demonic realm and it is real. And Richard Gallagher ended up. He spent the last 20 years researching and being involved in exorcisms and cases of demonic possession. And as a trained psychiatrist, he says there is a difference between someone who is mentally ill and someone who is demon possessed. [00:31:02] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:31:03] Speaker A: And he's seen it all. They've had one case in which many cases where these demon possessed people will speak in Latin and languages they don't know. One case where eight witnesses saw a body levitate off of a table. I mean, these are authentic cases of possession. Now the good News is, for a Christian, we can't be demon possessed. The Holy Spirit indwells us, and we can't also be indwelled by a demon spirit. On the other hand, Satan can hector us, he can annoy us, he can bother us, he can put impediments up to us. And that's why we have to be aware of how to put on the full armor of God, as Ephesians 4 says, and to protect ourselves against this demonic realm. But it's a very real war and we don't like to talk about it very much. It's a funny thing. I spoke recently on the topic of angels and somebody said to me, I've been a Christian 40 years. I've never heard a sermon on the topic of angels in 40 years, ever. And when's the last time we heard a sermon on demons? That's right. But it is timely. And, you know, one of the interesting things, I interviewed a scholar, actually Southern Baptist, on demons, and he said, you know, Satan is very wily. He can't read our minds, but he can study our character. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:32:23] Speaker A: And he's efficient. And I said, what do you mean by that? He said, you know, yes. Does he go after individual people? Do demons sometimes possess individual people? Yes. But he said, how much more efficient is it for Satan to go to Hollywood and to have demonic influence in an industry that is going to touch millions of lives? And so to prompt and encourage the creation of, let's say, a comedy series, a TV series, a movie. That's hilarious. It's so funny. But the underlying teachings is sexual immorality or whatever, and when we laugh, it opens us up to other things. It just opens doors. And he said, how much more efficient is it for Satan to influence, say, Hollywood so that it will influence millions of other people? And I thought, yeah, that's a good point. That's a very good point to be aware of. [00:33:16] Speaker C: Yeah. So I'm curious about this question. I could see somebody listening to this podcast and they're convinced in the supernatural. They believe what you argue for in the book and they desire to see it themselves. They're praying for the miracle. They're expecting God and praying for God to do exceedingly, abundantly more, more than he could ask, dare imagine. Dream. They don't see it. Yeah, they've been praying. The, the, the sickness doesn't go away. The illness doesn't heal. Yeah, I, I remember one story from our church. There was a woman that, that had some significant illnesses and someone made the comment well, your faith just must not be enough. If you'll, if you'll just have more shotgun. [00:33:54] Speaker A: It's just so dangerous. [00:33:55] Speaker C: There's, I think there's people that wrestle with that. They're like, my faith must be strong enough. I must not be praying hard enough with thinking about these supernatural things. What do you say to that person? [00:34:05] Speaker A: I have a chapter in my book called the Case for Miracles where I go into depth on this issue. It's a very important issue and it's a personal issue. My wife has a neuromuscular condition. She's been in pain for 20 years. She will be in pain the rest of her life every single day, unless God intervenes and does a miracle to this incurable condition, which he hasn't chosen to do. So you're talking about me praying for her healing. It's never come. I interviewed for that book Dr. Douglas Groteuis, who is a well known philosopher Christian. His wife was dying of a brain condition at that time. She ended up dying after the book came out. And I interviewed him about what? About your prayers not being answered. And there's a lot to say about that. He, at my urging, actually, actually wrote a book on it. It's brilliant, called, I think it's called Trudging Toward Twilight. DOUGLAS GROTHE G R O O T H U I S Look it up on Amazon if you have anybody wrestling with this. That is a powerful book. But I have that interview with him in my book and a couple points he makes. Number one, God is sovereign. God will do as God will do. Number two, in the New Testament, miracles were not automatic, not a vending machine that we pray for something and automatically get it. Apostle Paul had this thorn in the flesh that apparently wasn't healed. He had a friend named Trophimus who was sick. And instead of healing him, Paul went off on a missionary journey and left Trophimus behind. Sick. [00:35:28] Speaker C: Timothy also obviously had some type of stomach problems. Can't just pray it away. [00:35:32] Speaker A: That's right. And then Jesus taught and enabled the disciples, kind of gave them the ability to heal in one chapter and then seven chapters later, they can't heal an epileptic boy. So this is a mystery. We don't know for sure why God does what he does. But we do know that ultimately God will heal all of his followers. That's right. And maybe in the world to come, my wife will enjoy eternity without any pain, suffering and tears. So we can trust in that. The other thing, I was thinking about this the other day. What If God healed everybody right then when they prayed for healing, we couldn't do science. In our world, science is based on predictability, cause and effect. But if people are being healed right and left supernaturally by God, we would live in a culture that we can't do science. I just thought about that the other day. So I haven't thought that through very much. So maybe going, what are you, an idiot? But so God will do as God will do, and. And, you know, Romans 8, 28. We sometimes see that as a cliche. But God will cause all things to work together for good for those who love him or are called according to his purposes. And I see that in my wife's life. My wife is a woman of empathy and understanding and grace and love that she may not have ever been had she not gone through this experience herself, where she can empathize with others who are going through trials and tribulations. I think of my friend Joni Eareckson Tada, paralyzed in a diving accident at age 16. Been in a wheelchair for 50 or 60 years now, suffering from cancer as well. And she said, lee, I'd rather be in my wheelchair knowing Jesus than running around free without him. God used that to bring her to a profound faith. And now she ministers to thousands of people who are going through difficult times. So it's a complex issue. I'd encourage people to get Douglas Grodhis book if it's really something they wrestle with. [00:37:37] Speaker B: So toward the end of the book, last couple chapters, one is, which I'm sure this was super intentional, but you save it till the end. A great interview with J. Warner Wallace, who. Who's been with us. Love him so much. On. On the. Basically the reliability of the Gospels, especially the resurrection, talking about that. And then you close out with a very timely one on ghost and the paranormal, which. Which is kind of related to the other things you talked about in the book, but not really. It's. It's its own deal. It is, yeah. So that was good. Anything specific you want to say about that? [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah, we got to be careful with the whole ghost thing. A technical definition of a ghost is someone who dies, but their spirit refuses to go the next step into the afterlife. I don't see that in the Bible. [00:38:19] Speaker B: No. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Does the Bible talk occasionally about ghosts? Yeah, but it's referring to beliefs that people had not necessarily teaching about ghosts. I think most ghostly apparitions are demonic. [00:38:33] Speaker B: Demonic, yeah. [00:38:33] Speaker A: I'd agree. I do. Now, we do have the transfiguration where we have deceased people who came. We Have Samuel in the Old Testament and the medium of Endor, who seems. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Shocked by the way every time I preach that passage. That's one of the things she yells. But that's right, it seems to be a yelling like, oh no, it actually worked. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Which, which tells me it was God who was doing it, not her. And so could it. Could there be apparitions that are from God? I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm skeptical. And I have a great interview with Ron Rhodes, who's an expert on the occults and the paranormal, who talks about that. And we need to be discerning. He goes through ways we can be discerning in that way. And psychics, you know, are. There's so many tricks they use. And I talk about some of the tricks that they use to convince people they do have insights that they don't. And sometimes, you know, I think there's demonic influence. You know, there's a famous case I talk about my book of Jimmy Carter when she was president and an airplane had gone down a private plane in Africa and they couldn't find it. American intelligence services could not locate this plane. They had satellites looking for it. Nobody could find it. So they went to a psychic and she gave him the coordinates and sure enough they found the plane. Well, what's that about? Could that. What I would say that was a demonic expression of someone who was looking for credibility. Because if that happened to you, wouldn't you begin to rely on that woman for more information and more things about the. Of course. And so it gave credibility to her, I think, from a demonic source. So we have to be very careful. In my chapter with Ron Rhodes, he spells out different things we can do to discern is this from God or is this from Satan? [00:40:21] Speaker B: Well, thank you for the book. [00:40:22] Speaker A: It's very good. [00:40:23] Speaker B: If you haven't picked it up, you're. [00:40:24] Speaker A: One of the first to read it. That's awesome. [00:40:26] Speaker B: It was good. [00:40:26] Speaker A: In fact, I will say this. You are the first person I have talked to who's actually read. Read the book. [00:40:31] Speaker B: Well, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us have an early copy. I appreciate that. It was good. A couple things. One is I'm a little bit of a cynic by nature about some of this stuff. So your book for me, honestly was very helpful, especially on the near death experiences, some of those types of things and things I had not thought about before. So I appreciate that. And I'll be honest, it was a little bit of a challenge to me in a good way. On the Miracles chapter Some other things just to shore up my prayer life a little bit, man. And just kind of get. And I got a ton of chills reading the book. Just some great. Not just the demonic one at 10:30 at night, which that was my bad. But also just. Just the stories. Just hearing those stories. It's just encouraging to know that God is still working. I think in our culture, we put more faith in psychology and medicine and we run to that first instead of prayers. [00:41:18] Speaker C: And so in the same way that, like with preaching, I think sometimes as a. As a preacher, I can be tempted to put more. More faith or energy into academics and preparation through the spirit. [00:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So it was just a good reminder for me not to get so caught up in my particular first world worldview, but to see things from. [00:41:37] Speaker A: I grew as I read, as I researched the book. I always learn a lot. And it took me a couple years to put this together, and I learned a boatload myself. [00:41:46] Speaker B: Cool. Well, thanks for all your work on it. It's a ton of work. And go out and pick out a copy or go on Amazon or CBD or wherever you like to buy. Christian book distributors, wherever you like to go and pick up a copy of the book. But thanks again. We're looking forward to having you at Lead Defend. Glad to have you back in the state. Maybe we can get here some other time. Oh, one other question. Last time we talked, you were wrapping up your book that's supposed to come out at Christmas. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Kind of a new, expanded version, Case for Christmas. Tell us real quick about that. [00:42:12] Speaker A: It's called the Case for Christmas, and I did a book on that years ago, but I never particularly liked it. It was a lot of material from the Case for Christ with some sidebars about Christmas. This is a completely rework, and, man, there's some new stuff out there. You know, everybody criticizes Luke because of the timing of the census, and they claim he made a historical error that's now been resolved. A Swiss scholar came up with a resolution of that. Yeah. So I've got that in the book. Some new stuff about the Isaiah prophecy about the virgin birth that explains that passage, which some people say is not a messianic prophecy, and. No, actually it is, and here's why. And there's some things in the Hebrew that can't be translated into the English that emphasize that. So. So there's some fascinating stuff in there. I'm very excited. And we're keeping the price of that book really low so that it can be a giveaway book. I'M hoping that churches can get it in bulk inexpensively to give away to visitors on Christmas or to give to friends before Christmas and invite them to the Christmas service. [00:43:14] Speaker B: All right, Is there a release date set for that yet? [00:43:16] Speaker A: I don't have it, but I'm guessing October. [00:43:18] Speaker B: All right, well, if you want to preview the manuscript, you know where to send it. Right there, baby, I guess Bill's review. It's all good. Well, again, thanks for taking the time to be with us. We appreciate it. Always a pleasure to have you here with us in the state so this is the Lead Defend podcast. Want to let you know, as Brock maybe has shared earlier, we are in the middle of Lead Defend getting ready for it. So by the time you listen to this, Lead Defend will be over. However, we are already waist deep, if not neck deep in preparing for lead defend 2026. So yeah, we've got some great speakers that we are working with and are about to get committed to this. So continue to check leaddefend.org for updates and we hope to see you then. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. That's it for this episode of Lead Defend. To hear more episodes from the Lead defend crew, visit absc.org podcasts if you liked what you heard, rate and review us on your favorite podcast listening site. Want to learn more information about the next Lead Defend conference? [00:44:15] Speaker A: Visit at leaddefend. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Org.